Al Brown/ Liar

Originally Posted by snared99

I can not beleive this thread is still going. This would have been a great situation for Al to go above and beyond industry standards and just give the OP a signed lineage. I dont understand why 12 pages has gone by and this guy doesnt have any papers that are signed. That is a easy fix, sign a paper, spend 44 cents and show great customer service.
Even if having signed paperwork is not a standard it is what the customer wants, now they dont always get exactly what they want, but this was a easy chance to go above and beyond.

Hey Pat....what kinda hammer are you using??

I only ask because YOU hit the nail right on the head with that one!

I have to admit when I replied last night to this thread I was also wondering why it was still going.
I honestly could NOT agree more with what you said.
Customers don't always have to make sense to the sellers. We all do things differently and maybe expect different things. If Al wants this thread to quit hanging around the top he could easily send what is needed.
IMO it isn't even about who is right or wrong...it's about pleasing the customer. If that is too difficult in this situation than I guess there is really nothing more to do here.

I will say again, I hope both parties can come to some agreement and put this behind them. Good luck guys!

Originally Posted by ALBY

I have offered all info on the animal purchased as I do for everyone to this customer so here it is for you all to see.

The Albino Jungle sire was produced by me from a Jungle Het. Albino produced by Frank Martin and a Het Albino Produced by Robert Harmon.. The Albino Jungle Father was born in 08.

The Dame was produced by Peter Kahl from a Lipstick Hypo Het Albino Female and a Coral Albino Jungle Father... She was born in litter 19 of the 2006 Boa litters list on PK's site..

The father of this litter was an albino jungle and the mother was a Lipstick jungle Het albino produced by PK that is as much info as I have on them...

I offered picutures of the Albino Jungles Parents to Mr. Peterson and instead I have been labeled a liar with a complete premature BOI post..

A photo id with picture of the neonate and the father and a picture of the mother and her birth info was sent to the customer... That's as much lineage info as I have on them...

The photo id is lineage info as it has parental pictures and info on the dames parents that can't be saved off of Petes site because it is security protected. I disclose all info that I have on any animal to any customer... Mr. Peterson has proven to be totally impatient and insulting to me and I refuse to deal with grown children.. I was on vacation when this was brought to my attention and explianed in a Blackberry email I would be glad to send this info to him when I returned home on Monday October 31, 2011 and was able to get to my cpu.


I'm sorry that this wasn't enough info for Mr. Peterson...

Thanks to ShadowAceD for making me aware of this KOOK. The animal has also only been in Mr. Petersons possession for two weeks...

Thanks and have a great day...

Originally Posted by allreptiles1966

The info i wanted as lineage is stated above by Al.He did not offer any of this info to me.
The above looks alot more like lineage then 1 photo id of parents.Dont you think?
If Al had sent the above statement of those boa's of Frank Martin and Mr Harmon that came to help Al make these boa's,i would not be in here.!!
That above statement is lineage!!!

I thought it was already solved

Actually, I believe the buyer wanted a corrected signed copy.

But if the customer wants to accept something that he didn't request, but the community states is all he needs and "will do", then he could just print out what AL typed above in here and hope his own customers take that as paperwork (or create his own professional looking paperwork and attach the printout of this BOI as proof).

Personally, I do believe that a breeder can/should provide a professional looking copy as requested without requiring the customer to have to go out and hunt up the information himself.

the asking/requesting of lineage isnt really the issue (in my opinion anyway), its the fact that this thread was labeled a bad guy right off the bat. personally, if i had "issues" with what i thought was lineage shortcomings, i would have gotten some opinions first (perhaps in the discussion forum), and then maybe this big red x, could have, at most, been a question mark or something. i admire the op for wanting such precise genetics and history (although, not the norm), however, this bad guy thread gun was jumped way to early

I did a thread here recently because I didn't know you could use the discussion forums for it. I was plenty embarrassed too!

I don't think anybody has an issue with the request for lineage information...but a lot of us have an issue with how it was addressed...
By the OP's own statement (post 43), he wasn't looking for a formal document (though he has never clarified what he expected for "lineage papers")

What this seems to boil down to is impatience, and a misinterpretation, both on the part of the OP...and here's WHY I make that statement:
In the second line of the first post, Rich stated:

Al told me he would send me photo id and all his lineage papers

In that same post, he included a message from Al, which said:

And I will send you a photo id with all his lineage info stating everything about him...

There is a significant difference between those two statements; but in the 5th post, Rich makes it clear that this is the issue:

No,he guaranteed lineage papers and i got none

and in post 23

A photo id is not lineage papers Al

You do know what lineage papers are,right?

when you think 1 photo id is lineage papers,time to sell something else.

Now, I will agree that unsigned paperwork is little more than a piece of paper. I have never purchased from Al, so I can't comment on whether he usually signs it; but I can understand somebody wanting paperwork signed. The signature is what ties it to the person. However, while it was complained about here (after another member mentioned it), we haven't been shown anything that indicated Rich ever complained about that aspect of the paperwork. The paperwork was lacking any further information about the lineage of the snakes, unless there was something not visible in what was posted (while the image didn't show the entire paper, it didn't look like there would have been room for a sentence or two about the parents' parents and a signature, so I'm assuming that they weren't there).
On Oct 27, Rich contacted Al about the paperwork (see post 38). At this point, it seems that Al is on a different track than Rich - because he says he he will send pics of the paternal grandparents, and directs Rich where he can find pics of the maternal grandparents - but he clearly stated that he was away on vacation, and would not be able to do anything further until he returned home on Oct 31. Rich states that is the last contact he had with Al, and he posted this thread at 07:55 on 10/31 - before Al could reasonably have been expected to address his concerns. Most rational people would not have interpreted Al's response as being unwilling to satisfy his customer's request; so it would seem that the next step should have been a message to Al stating that he wasn't after more pics, he was looking for more information about the "grandparents" of the snake he purchased. Al gave that information freely enough...but it sounds as if he was writing Rich off, at that point. To my eyes, it is unlikely that Rich will get anything else from Al; but Rich has the information he was after.

One thing that I do wonder about is whether that lineage information was ever given to Rich before - during their pre sale discussions. It doesn't matter, as Al's statement was that the photo ID would have the information (and it didn't)...but it would help explain the absence of the information, if Al thought he had already given it.
(somehow, I doubt that we'll be hearing from either party; so that question will likely go unanswered)

Originally Posted by hhmoore

One thing that I do wonder about is whether that lineage information was ever given to Rich before - during their pre sale discussions. It doesn't matter, as Al's statement was that the photo ID would have the information (and it didn't)...but it would help explain the absence of the information, if Al thought he had already given it.
(somehow, I doubt that we'll be hearing from either party; so that question will likely go unanswered)

You may be right. It appears that way. The outcome is disappointing to me, because it was such an easy fix compared to some threads, I've read. Perhaps they fixed the issue themselves off the radar and are now watching in amusement..

While I do agree that the thread was unwarranted because of the timing, it was an opportunity for the seller/breeder to step up and perhaps improve an aspect of their business tactics. Every complaint does not mean someone is a bad guy...just that in some aspects of business there is room for improvement.

Originally Posted by radera5

Regardless of what WE all think is right or wrong, the fact remains that the OP didn't receive what he thought h should have.

If a customer has an incorrect or unreasonable impression of "what they should have", they are not, in fact, entitled to it merely by virtue of their lack of comprehension. And no, bending over backwards and catering to such an incorrect buyer's demands in the name of "being a stellar business person" is NOT the right answer... not most of the time, anyway.

It is clear that the seller provided EXACTLY WHAT HE THOUGHT THE CUSTOMER WANTED. The fact that the customer wanted something outlandish in light of normally accepted business practices in the reptile world was not the seller's burden to bear. He MAY have rectified it if given a bit of time, but this was a completely premature and immature thread, IMO.

FWIW, I would NEVER, EVER have thought "generations previous to the parents" had someone mentioned "lineage papers" to me vis-a-vis a snake purchase. I've never heard of such a thing... if this is what the customer was expecting, he was expecting something well outside the norm, and it was HIS responsibility to make it crystal clear as such.

How long was i suppose to wait for the info Al promised me>He sent a snake with nothing in the box for photo id or lineage.I had to ask for photo id to get it.Then i got it in the mail days later with no lineage papers.I had to ask again and at that point i think Al is playing.He didnt sign the photo id either.
I have 17 boa right now and everyone 1 but 2 have signed photo id.
Al told me he would send me all the info he has posted on here.Why didnt he send that info to me after he told me he would.He sent the photo id and could have sent that ilso and didnt.Im not goging to ask people fior things they told me they would send me BEFORe buying the boa.I would not have bought the excellent looking jungle form Al if it didnt have papers that i could trace back several generations.Al says its a 3rd generation
and that means he has more info then he gave with a set of parent pics!
I know what lineage is and Al should if he's going to offer it before the sale!
As stated,maybe the opening was rough,but i believe i was lied to and told things just so i would buy from him.Maybe he needed my money for the vacation.He tried to sell me an albino jungle before i even got any photo id.I told him i would when i seen the lineage papers from him for the jungle.
I'm sorry if you like Al and know him,but,he did it to himself.
I have bought all the boa's i have in less then 3 years and have no issues with others.
This is a jungle not an albino,people on here told me to make sure i got paperwork that goes back to the Lars jungles.I tried and no one would give or had any proof they wre real jungles,besides telling me-its so easy to teel its a jungle.
What morte do you want from me.
I dont hide and will stick up for myself.I'm just not going to answer all the BS that people are throwing.
I know Al will get the good part since he is well known.Well,well known people will lie and have.
Please ask anything you want,i will answer if i think its mature and not just to dog me.
Oh,its not just about an unsigned photo id.
Thanks
Rich