Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by Robert Walker

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Well, since no one else seems to want to do it, here it is:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...63#post1962363

Since the disease isn't limited to only one species, the Veterinarian Practice forum seemed most appropriate.

Thank you, Dan, for taking the initiative. The team appreciates it.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Still waiting on the lab results. It's important to find out what your snakes have, and important to find out how and where they contracted their illness. More information will be a start to help find answers.

I guess what I'm confused about is that it seems that the only reason it was even suspected to be SFD is because you posted pictures on a facebook group and one member (who is also a member here) said that's what it is. Now I'm not a veterinarian, but aren't definitive diagnoses over the internet generally frowned upon?

It sounds to me like there is a huge amount of assumption being made here. Were these animals treated by you for parasites or infections? Knowing they were WC, was any attempt made (once they started appearing unhealthy) to have them tested?

It sounds as if this entire thread, which will affect someone's business and livelihood, is based on nothing more than that someone on the internet told you it might be a rare disease. I personally don't consider that proof of anything other than that you're very gullible. Maybe that's an assumption of my own, and maybe I'll be wrong when the tests come back, but it sounds like these snakes improved when you improved their conditions and over time (as the husbandry deteriorated) began to appear sick again. For a disease with a 100% mortality rate, it seems odd that they would show such drastic improvement to the point that you felt taking them to the vet was unnecessary. Such a debilitating disease (were it actually present) surely wouldn't be as easy to correct as improving the husbandry?
It certainly sounds like a dermatological disease though, as that's exactly how I would expect it to react (aka blister disease).

So is there any evidence this is SFD other than that someone on the internet saw a picture you posted and decided that was it? Or is that what all of this was based on, which is what I'm seeing? (I did skip a page so maybe I missed something important).

Originally Posted by Lucille

I worded what I had to say carefully. While it (and the payment receipt for the snakes) may be authentic, there have been a number of not authentic documents posted as proof on the BOI in the past.
Vet documents are particularly difficult to verify, because ordinarily a vet's office will not talk to anyone except the account holder without written permission, about the critters and the account.

There's a phone number and an actual name of the Vet Clinic on the receipt. I'm sure a quick google search could verify if it's a legit clinic or not.

Milo

Originally Posted by Milo Garcia

There's a phone number and an actual name of the Vet Clinic on the receipt. I'm sure a quick google search could verify if it's a legit clinic or not.

Milo

The clinic might be legit. That does not necessarily mean that the information shown is legit. If you do a search, you will see several instances of false documentation on the BOI. I'm not saying that this information is not legit, I am saying it has not been verified.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

I guess what I'm confused about is that it seems that the only reason it was even suspected to be SFD is because you posted pictures on a facebook group and one member (who is also a member here) said that's what it is. Now I'm not a veterinarian, but aren't definitive diagnoses over the internet generally frowned upon?

Since this addresses me, I'll respond. Joe posted on the Colubrid Crazy Facebook page asking for opinions regarding the lesions. Myself and another researcher working with SFD (name mentioned in my first post) said these lesions are consistent with SFD. Joe's veterinarian agreed. We never gave a definitive diagnosis, but highly encouraged Joe to get the snakes tested at Dr. Allender's lab and inform various entities that there may be a problem, which is the proper course of action during a possibly severe disease outbreak across state lines.

Since this has come up several times here and on the Facebook page, let me clarify again. Myself and other the other actual experts working on SFD in wild snakes never said this was definitively SFD. We said the lesions are consistent with SFD and the snake needs to be tested for SFD. Even if this does not test positive for SFD, the fact remains that Underground Reptiles is still exporting wild-caught diseased snakes to unsuspecting (and sometimes expecting) buyers across state lines.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

the fact remains that Underground Reptiles is still exporting wild-caught diseased snakes to unsuspecting (and sometimes expecting) buyers across state lines.

Vanessa I have the utmost respect for you, and I appreciate you helping and advising the OP. Your educated advice helps him, and helps all of us. But I do not think it has been established as a fact (yet) that the disease or condition originated at Underground.
There may be another common causation factor that has been overlooked. I think the discussion thread that Dan initiated may be valuable because others with snakes that have these symptoms can compare notes.
I'm not ruling out Underground as the common denominator, but so far this thread seems heavy on conjecture and light on facts, when it comes to establishing where this condition, whatever it ultimately turns out to be, originated.

Unfortunately, Underground Reptiles is known for shipping animals that are in poor health and/or diseased.

Within the Faunaclassifieds BOI:
- Mel Fasano ordered two female panther geckos, which arrived small and very skinny. Within a week one female died. The other "female" turned into a male. Mel was only offered a replacement female if they made another purchase from them. Other members posted similar problems in this thread.
- Joel Fluty ordered 2 crocodile monitors for a breeding project. Both had rear foot injuries and the female was missing an eye.
- Ronald Ritzer ordered two ornate frogs, a pixie, and a pacman frog. The frogs were shipped in soaking wet moss, packed sideways in the package, and one was dead on arrival after having been pinned under the moss.
- Underground Reptiles mislabeling animals in their ads.

It's important to note that yes, Underground Reptiles does have some positive BOIs. However, the ratio on Fauna is about 33% bad and 66% good, and the bad is bad. Dead animals, animals in poor health, mislabeled animals, missexed animals...

Here is a link to their Yelp reviews. Granted, these are essentially anonymous reviews, but again, the ratio is about 50/50 good/bad reviews, with the bad being really bad. YELP REVIEWS

Additionally, a search on the Facebook page "FBI- Feedback and Inquiries for Reptiles" reveals many negative reviews with the same issues as above. I'm not sure if this link will work because I'm not sure if you have to be a member to view it: FBI FACEBOOK LINK

Underground Reptiles has a score of 4.7 out of 5.0 on Google, with a sample size of 527 reviews. The one and two star reviews detail the same issues discussed above: DOAs, sick animals, missexed, etc. GOOGLE REVIEWS

The general consensus in the reptile community is that this business is mediocre at best, negligent at worst. I can take screenshots if necessary if people want them from the above Yelp, Facebook, and Google review pages, but I'm not sure if this would violate the rules of anonymous posting within the BOI or not as both Facebook and Yelp have less stringent rules about account creation and user names. If the mods request screenshots, I will provide them.

I'm not arguing for them, I have no horse in this race. However, the litany of past errors apparently did not stop the OP from ordering from them.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Within 10 days white pustules started to show up on a couple of the snakes. Within 4 weeks of their arrival one was near death (pictured upstream in this thread) and others were showing signs - encrusted, scabby skin lesions, swollen eyes, etc.

You can see the sterile enclosures I quarantined the snakes in - each housed separately - in the attached photo. The cardboard is lifted up in the to show the pieces of cypress and water bowl. The enclosures were cleaned after every water spill, defecation (theirs, not mine) or anything else that left even a slightly damp enclosure.

Even so, symptoms continued to develop. Some snakes would shed them off and look like new again.

This is a strange progression of illness.
Vanessa, I do not want to make this an adversarial argument, all I am saying is that in my opinion, there is not enough information here yet.
That Underground has had past issues of various kinds does not automatically make them guilty of the present issue.
I'm not happy about their lack of participation in this thread, some information from them and voluntary testing by them would go a long way to help narrow down and help find what is going on.
The thread will serve to alert the community, and since there is lab work supposedly pending, more certainty about what this illness is, and perhaps where it came from, may be imminent.