Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

So far you have a receipt from Underground, and what you say is a vet receipt. You need to connect possible dots by posting vet reports and lab results, because it is possible that Underground is not involved. It is possible they are. We don't know, at this point.[/quote]


Is this individual a moderator or do they just get a kick at demanding things in almost every BOI post?

Lucille, normally I am in agreement with your demands for information. However, in this case I believe you are being unnecessarily overzealous. If you doubt the authenticity of the receipt, you may call the number listed on the receipt for confirmation. As far as him connecting the dots between the vet receipt and the snakes he received from Underground Reptiles... what exactly are you looking for here? How could he actually prove this other than having a video documenting every step of the way from opening the package through quarantine and over weeks of care?

Originally Posted by snowgyre

Functionally, this disease is identical to the fungal disease (Bsal) that shut down the interstate trade of true salamanders (Salamandridae) in the United States, and thus these results may have widespread implications for the hobby as well as for conservation.

Thank you! My only concern here is to stop the spread of what could a devastating disease. This has world wide implications as SFD has now been isolated in Europe and Australia as well as western US in captive herp populations.

Some of you may have noticed I didn't make any demands on Underground to refund money or pay vet bills? I don't expect them to and I didn't come here to demand they do. This seems like an incredibly difficult concept for some people to get their heads around!

Please get over the nitpicking of details. I'll post a full lab report as soon as it arrives from U of Illinois.

I want to post photos of the 6 of 9, new born Nerodia I got from Underground so people can see how this disease first manifests itself in the snakes. These photos were taken Aug 20, about 3.5 / 4.0 weeks after arrival.

The disease is evident in each of these photos - look for small white or grey blisters and in a couple, a single clouded eye. All develop into scabby lesions quickly ...

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Thank you! You are exactly right - This thread is way beyond good guy / bad guy. It isn't really even about Underground Reptiles. Its about a potential threat to our wild snakes, our captive snakes and our hobby as we understand it today.

I understand that but THIS thread is truly about Underground Reptiles.

The general discussion about the disease and it's impact should be taken to the discussion forums, whoever does so can leave a link here if they wish.

Originally Posted by The new repti keeper

Is this individual a moderator ?

Moderator names are in BLUE

Here are the last 2 of the 6. The one most effected died shortly after the photo was taken.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

what exactly are you looking for here

Perhaps a timeline. Little is known about this disease, it may be helpful to look at everything. What if there is another commonality between the keepers whose snakes have exhibited symptoms. or if there are a sudden increase of snakes with such symptoms that have not been near Underground?

Originally Posted by snowgyre

It's unfortunate that Joe is having to deal with this issue. I have no reason to suspect foul play on his part, and I am exceedingly grateful he is spending his own money paying for the tests for SFD. He could have ignored an issue that may directly result in the spread of a deadly disease if left unchecked. He spent a great deal of time, money, and effort on building his new Nerodia enclosure, only to have to destroy everything if these tests come back positive. Snake fungal disease is recoverable in captivity, but due to the variability of morbidity in wild snakes based upon genus and latitude, we have no choice but to take possible risks seriously. We also do not know if these snakes remain carriers even if they may be unsymptomatic. Functionally, this disease is identical to the fungal disease (Bsal) that shut down the interstate trade of true salamanders (Salamandridae) in the United States, and thus these results may have widespread implications for the hobby as well as for conservation.

I agree. I hope that the lab results are available soon, and that they are conclusive. I think that it is very important to establish what it is that Joe's snakes have, and where it came from.

Originally Posted by Lucille

...it may be helpful to look at everything.

Helpful, yes. Possible, no.

Thats why we have to look at the preponderance of the evidence.The symptoms all showed up in new born water snakes, born at the same facility, but sent out to 3 different keepers. The snakes subsequent care was perfectly randomized - a (nearly) perfect double blind study.

The fact that all had snakes develop the same symptoms in the same time frame makes it almost impossible that the disease was the result of captive conditions after the snakes left Underground. Plus the fact that we all have years of experience keeping Nerodia - in 2 of the cases I would say specializing in them.

For what its worth, I spoke with Underground this morning. They are aware of this thread.

I am curious

So the vet visit is date Nov 21st the snake purchase is dated July 25th, what happened during those 4 months?

The only reason I ask is because 4 months is a long time, I know you said that you have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival. But do you have a vet report from that time as well because that would help the timeline or did you simply started go to the vet for the first time on November 21st which would be 3 weeks after those pictures were taken and 4 months after receiving the animals?

Originally Posted by Deborah Stewart

I am curious

So the vet visit is date Nov 21st the snake purchase is dated July 25th, what happened during those 4 months?

The only reason I ask is because 4 months is a long time, I know you said that you have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival. But do you have a vet report from that time as well because that would help the timeline or did you simply started go to the vet for the first time on November 21st which would be 3 weeks after those pictures were taken and 4 months after receiving the animals?

Meant 3 months.

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Originally Posted by Deborah Stewart

Meant 3 months.

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I think if you read all of joes posts in this thread you will find the timeline fits.
in particular you will see at post #23 it really does explain the 3 month timeline

thank you!