Some people are just too stupid to own animals!

I hestated to post this but the sheer gall of this guy made me want to share. I have been breeding and selling pits for a number of years. One thing i drill into everyones head is that they CANNOT be pushed when feeding. Once a week with a smallish prey item and no more for the first year. I am especially vocal on this subject to buyers of Deppei Jani. They are even more sensitive than most pits to overfeeding.

Anyway, here is the Email exchange. I blanked out the buyers Email address Out of courtesy. Please take a close look at the dates and timeline


> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 7:39 PM
> To: mhs2@tampabay.rr.com; mhs2@tampabay.rr.com
> Subject:
>
> John , I purchased from you at the Daytona Show 1.1 Pituophis
> jani, the
> female is doing well(following your feeding advice of 1
> pink mouse per
> week) but as of the 3rd feeding the male is regurging his food(a
> pink mouse)
> after only 20 minutes or so. There are no problems such as temperatur
> variants or stress and the snake is housed alone in a 10
> gallon tank. Can
> you help? Thank You Gary

My Response

----- Original Message -----
From: John Schmitt <mhs2@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 19:46
Subject: RE:
To:

> Gary
>
> A little more info would help. How long after
> arriving home did you
> attempt to feed. How many times has the male
> regurged? If I understand
> correctly, the male kept two meals down successfully and
> regurged the third?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> John Schmitt
> Suncoast Herpetological
>
> http://suncoastherps.com


His Response

From:
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:46 PM
To: John Schmitt
Subject: Re: RE:



I waited about 4 days before offering food, the first two meals (1 pink each) were kept down the third, and fourth meal (the last being today ) were regurged within 20 to 30 minutes. Thank You Gary


My Response



Gary



I am running the dates and can’t get a handle on the timeline. If the first meal took place 4 days after you picked up the animals, that would put it on the 22nd or 23rd. A week later would have put the second meal on either the 29th or 30th. The animals shouldn’t have gotten a third meal until the 5th, two days from now. Given the time span, it sounds like the fourth meal was right on the heels of the first regurge. I was very specific about the feeding requirements of this species. Given the time span, it sounds like you were feeding much more frequently than every seven days. The two regurges back to back will have heavily stressed the animal as well as depleting normal stomach flora. The best thing to do is wait at least a week to attempt another feeding. Make sure the animal is kept as stress free as possible during that time. No handling at all. Keep fresh water available. On the next feeding, try the smallest day old pink you can find. If the animal keeps it down, put him on a small day old pink every 8 days for the next few feedings. If he doesn’t keep the next meal down, you can try a mild dose of Flagyl but, in all honesty, after three gurges, he is probably beyond repair. Gary, that is the reason stress the feeding regimen so strongly on Jani. Based on the date of the first feeding, he has had 4 meals in 12 days, the 4th right after a regurge.. They simply won’t tolerate a schedule like that.



Keep me posted and I will be happy to offer whatever help I can



Thanks



John Schmitt

Suncoast Herpetological


Needless to say, he never bothered to respond.

As I stated in the title. Some people are just too stupid to own animals

John

It looks like you really know your stuff on feeding these guys and it looks like feeding them correctly is important.

It is very frustrating to know how something should be done, and have that knowledge actually impact the health of a critter; and then see people who don't seem to know or care enough to do it right.

Is there any way to create a care sheet that is both specific, simple and graphic rich so that even the most un-knowledgeable of owners might sit up and take notice?

That would be a great idea! I didn't even know what Pits were. A caresheet with a pic of the animal would be a great draw. (jmo)

Wow I wonder who tells these snakes in the wild that they still have 3 more days before they can take that next meal?

Regurges are not from over feeding. They are a sign of bad husbandry. When you really think about it does it make any sense that an animal would have such a strict requirment on feedings. Do you really think they have some internal measuring cup that says "yup that did the trick" and then sets off a timer for 7 days till it can be filled again. You should be able to offer a hatchling anything (post-shed) meals every other day and they'll take it greedily and keep it down. just my 2 cents

Nate Danforth

Originally Posted by Nate83

Wow I wonder who tells these snakes in the wild that they still have 3 more days before they can take that next meal?

Regurges are not from over feeding. They are a sign of bad husbandry. When you really think about it does it make any sense that an animal would have such a strict requirment on feedings. Do you really think they have some internal measuring cup that says "yup that did the trick" and then sets off a timer for 7 days till it can be filled again. You should be able to offer a hatchling anything (post-shed) meals every other day and they'll take it greedily and keep it down. just my 2 cents

Nate Danforth

I gotta disagree with you on this one Nate.

Some snakes just don't do well with large meals or meals fed to frequently.

Some snakes will flat out refuse to eat if they've eaten well recently. Some will try and regurge everything. Work with Calkings for a while and you'll see it all.

There is a point of being overfilled though and it's not good to reach it on hatchlings. They can be put off feeding, lose vital bacteria that help in digestion and appetite stimulation and hydration.

Originally Posted by Nate83

Wow I wonder who tells these snakes in the wild that they still have 3 more days before they can take that next meal?

Regurges are not from over feeding. They are a sign of bad husbandry. When you really think about it does it make any sense that an animal would have such a strict requirment on feedings. Do you really think they have some internal measuring cup that says "yup that did the trick" and then sets off a timer for 7 days till it can be filled again. You should be able to offer a hatchling anything (post-shed) meals every other day and they'll take it greedily and keep it down. just my 2 cents

Nate Danforth

You probably want to ask for a refund on your two cents Nate. I wasn't putting my statement forward as an opinion or hypothesis...it is proven fact. Any experienced Piuophis Breeder would support it as such. While there are certain species that handle heavy feeding better than others, it is almost invariably a mistake in the long run. Corns and hognose can be fed very heavily and gotten to breeding size in a year or so. One of the breeders down here used to routinely breed corns at 16 or 18 months. He no longer does it because the animals were very prone to egg binding. They also tended to mysteriously die at about the age of five. They ended up pinheadee as well due to the fact that bony structures do not grow at the same rate as soft tissue during power feeding. This is especially obvious in species like Boas and Burms.

What you are forgetting in your hypothesis is that snakes in captivity are not being kept in a normal habitat no matter well you regulate the temps, humidity or substrate. They are CONFINED. In the wild, they have the ability to go where they will. After a large meal, they have the ability to go sessile for a while and digest. In captivity, if the food is placed in close proximity, they will usually try and eat it. They are creatures of instinct and, while they would probably not be hunting with a full belly, they will take advantage of a windfall.

With Pits, you simply can't do it. They aren't limited to long term negative effects. They simply begin to regurge. Two or three regurges and they are generally beyond repair.

Originally Posted by Nate83

Wow I wonder who tells these snakes in the wild that they still have 3 more days before they can take that next meal?

Regurges are not from over feeding. They are a sign of bad husbandry. When you really think about it does it make any sense that an animal would have such a strict requirment on feedings. Do you really think they have some internal measuring cup that says "yup that did the trick" and then sets off a timer for 7 days till it can be filled again. You should be able to offer a hatchling anything (post-shed) meals every other day and they'll take it greedily and keep it down. just my 2 cents

Nate Danforth

I just noticed the title on your post and the statement I have bolded. Surely you realize that they make absolutely no sense?

I agree completely with John on this one. I have a pair of 07 janis and a couple of hatchling bulls. The bulls can take 2 pinks at a time every 7 days and do well on them. The janis on the other hand get one small pink every 7 days. My female jani regurged a pink that was just a tad bigger then normal on the second feeding. I am very careful to make sure they both get the smallest pinks now and have not had a problem since. This is stated in almost every care sheet you see about janis.

And yeah, get a refund on that 2 cents......

Another fact to note is that in the wild, many snakes die of various mishaps and in captivity more care is given to see that they live. An overeating pit (if circumstances arise that food is plentiful) may have problems surviving in the wild.

Regurges are not from overeating does make sense. My point is regurges are a sign of another problem, not too much food. just because offering fewer meals reduces regurges doesn't mean that over feeding is the problem. That's like saying that when you walk on a broken foot and it hurts that it's the walking that's the problem.

Offering access to higher temperatures to enable the digestion of large meals is what is needed. If the max temperature you allow is 80's and low 90's then of course you may run into regurge issues. How many of you allow your pits temps higher than 85-88 degrees.

Every thing I keep and breed has access to at least 110 degree surface temp and some (no snakes) up to 160 degrees. Now keep in mind these are surface temps not air temps. This include pits, corns, hogs, candoi boas, BCI, Morelia, White lips, leopard geckos, bearded dragons, jacksons chameleons, and Ackies. All hatclings are fed at least every other day until refusal and thats usually with the snakes, no less than 3 pinks and I have never had a regurge from anyone. regurges are flat out a sign of another problem and no doubt feeding large meals may excacerbate that problem just like walking on a broken foot makes the pain worse. feeding or overfeeding are not the cause. Basic lessons in causation and correlation.