Policy change for FaunaClassifieds - IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!

Hey Rich,,
I for one applaud what your doing,,, It does take a big man to say"enough is enough".
As far as pleasing everyone,,,
i think we all know that is never gonna happen,, but it all really comes down to this,,,, who owns the website we are all on,,,?
And with the ownership comes great responsibilty, and a duty to do what he feels is the right thing to do,,, And i think Rich is more than fair with everyone,,, does he just randomly kick people off the site,,,No .. does he treat anyone unfairly,,,,,, No.... does he try and make the place better...Yes,, does he at least put ideas out there for discussion about what could make this site better?....Yes,,, and most of all , if the poular "vote" is yes to something,, does he make it happen...YES..( the fauna auction site) so in my eyes Rich is doing the right thing,,,and most of all if he can sleep good at night knowing at least for his part he "buried the axe " so to speak, then he deserves a pat on the back! and to me that is where the buck stops!
great site, and proud to be a member of this "family"
cheers to Rich

I already posted my own feelings, the little they are worth. But I like to see myself as one of the little fish swimming in a big pool. None of the big fish can survive unless they fed on the little fish. That is exactly what kingsnake has done. Yet this time, they have succeded with taking the other big fish out of the pond, while also getting rid of any little ones who disagree with this so the rest of the little fish can be blindly led into their open mouth. And now the only supporter and voice available has chosen to do what they do, keep quiet, and hope it all "goes away"

My respect or anyone elses doesn't and shouldn't matter. But for what its worth, personally, my respect was lain at the person who was NOT deleting posts, not going to ban everyone if they didnt like it, and who was going to say, STOP you can't be in this community if you lie, cover up, and basically cheat. And if you don't stop, people will know!

Another forum for kingsnake again? It doesn't really matter now. He got his way. He was able to treat members, and clients with disrespect, and treat us all like his little bad children, and then crush anyone who didn't like it AND keep it somewhat quiet to the general masses. But I believe it (a forum) would have stood for a good reminder to people what really can happen when you get consumed with money, power and the #1 spot.

bmm
Marisa Brophy
P.S. Either way this forum rules. So I will never stop coming here. LOL.

Rich, I think I understand your position as you've expressed it: You operate a herp website. Therefore for you to criticize another herp website - particularly a potentially competing website - might make you appear petty. Ok, but...

- You buy/sell herps, too, right? Are you therefore now going to strictly avoid criticizing other people who buy/sell herps, too? Really it's none of your concern how someone runs their website OR ANY OTHER KIND OF HERP-ORIENTED BUSINESS unless you choose to make it your concern, right? Or does one cause you to risk appearing petty but the other not? I honestly don't see it, if that's your take on the situation.

- You have chosen not only to keep your own criticisms of kingsnake.com (and ostensibly other herp websites) to yourself, but also to disallow others to criticize them (and have deleted others' past criticisms of kingsnake.com as well). It's true that you created the "Web Wars..." forum and initiated a number of the threads/posted a number of the messages there, but you didn't create all the problems with Jeff Barringer & Co., and they weren't only problems between them and you. Far from it! MANY people have been treated very badly at kingsnake.com, and a number of them - myself included - came here and posted in good faith and in the context of your boards (prior to this new policy, anyway) criticisms of kingsnake.com for that mistreatment. But you didn't just delete posts related to your possibly petty (I don't really agree with your take on that either, by the way) tiff between faunaclassifieds and kingsnake.com, you deleted ALL our posts.

I know, your justification of the above is that it fits with your new policy which now suddenly and as far as I can tell extremely conveniently (for kingsnake.com) distinguishes between different kinds of herp businesses; now some are fair game for criticism on your site and others aren't. And hey, you DO solicit opinions on how to run your site from your users, and you DO even consider those opinions. I certainly applaud you for that.

But isn't doing the right thing important, too? Here in FL we still have the occasional racially segregated town ("there's a room in the back of the bar for <i>them</i>!"), and believe it or not the majority of the inhabitants of such places (who are NOT of "them") are just fine with it. Does that mean it's ok, then? As I said, I believe you know as well as I do about the injustice they have been perpetrating against users over at kingsnake.com. But now - even though you operate a website that functions largely to let the herp community know about the business practices of various members in that community - you think whatever they choose to do over there is just fine, heck, it should never even be allowed to be mentioned on your website, in the interest of some kind of togetherness?

I'm sorry, that simply makes no sense to me.

What DOES make sense to me is to stick to your original charter. No, neither kingsnake.com nor any other website merits its own forum for attacks against it, and yes, I understand that you personally might wish to stay clear of certain threads simply to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. But I don't see any GOOD reason why kingsnake.com and any other herp website can't be praised/criticized in the BOI just as with any other herp business.

Gerry Binczik

I once remember one of my high school science teachers cracking a joke:

"You know, I was wrong once. That particular day I thought I was wrong, but it turned out I was right after all. I was wrong about my being wrong."

On one hand I have people applauding my step in the direction of trying to resolve this conflict. To try to pull things back together when it feels that the stresses are going to be to no one's long term benefits. But on the other, I have people that feel that there needs to be a safe harbor somewhere for the truth to be seen. Some say that the rift will never be mended, and maybe now perhaps even get worse. That perhaps my gesture was wasted, and even worse, likely to be interpreted as a surrender.

So which one is more important? And will even asking this question force people to choose sides and begin to fan the flames again?

And Gerry, yes you do have valid points about the involvement of this site in the future of our industry. But you yourself say you don't have much time to come to this site, or other ones. So what are you offering to do? Be a sideline spectator or take a more active hand at what you are proposing is best that I do here? This site has MANY spectators that are content to just watch the show. People that look at this all as just entertainment, then go give their money to the other site for the site hosting and advertising accounts.

If the majority of the people just think that being a cheering section is good enough here, then I'm not interested in fighting their battles for them. I put this site up to try to help people and provide them with something interesting. If they are only looking for free entertainment, then go to the library, because I AM NOT INTERESTED in providing that for them.

So what are YOU going to do to help if this problem is as bad as you say it is?

"This is about the appearance of pettiness. "

While I agree somewhat with your statement Rich, I believe you have misplaced the responsibility for the pettiness. Those of us who followed the events with JeffB and ks.com from the beginning know whose pettiness was responsible for what happened. I think you have done the right thing from the beginning by allowing a place where people could post their grievances without fear of being banned. As Gerry said, a board dedicated to bashing a particular site may be too much, but changing your policies to make Jeffb or ks.com off limits is the wrong way to address this. Your decision to post or not to post is the same decision everyone else has to make, and anything they post has their name on it and they are solely responsible for their words. By changing your policy you remove your words and decide for everyone else what they can say. IMO you are not responsible for their words nor do I think their words reflect on you or make you petty.

Maybe I've been lifting too many heavy things this week but, I thought the gist of Rich's policy change was to quit the bitching and crying about how any other site was run by posting about it here. I thought the new policy was more in the line of- if you have a real problem such as I paid for my banner add and pissed off jeffb and it's gone as opposed to I violated the TOS over at that other site and now I'm banned can I join the club, is what Rich is trying to weed out.

That's not very clear but I got the impression that if you want to bitch and moan about how other sites are run then call your mommy but don't bring it here. However if you have a legitimate problem, got ripped off in some way or recieved sick or misrepresented animals or something of that nature, then that was still welcome here.

Rich is this not more in line with what you were thinking of? Or was it really just a wholesale removal of all controversial posting about ks.com and any others?

Sorry ahead of time if this has been addressed elsewhere in this thread and I just missed it but, I am now, after reading the last couple of pages, somewhat confused.

Was it a call to end petty bickering and complaining about how other sites are run, which is the point I got, or is it something else much more insidious and not nearly so admirable?

Wes Pollock

There was a lot said pertaining to KS and some related individuals, much of it very valuable...

Having huge threads, massive long detailed threads that were added to by many people removed from view or deleted...

Kinda seems like the effort of typing was wasted.

I, too, am a bit confused. I also thought that you were just calling an end to the bickering and pettiness. I agree with wilomn, I understood that if we have a legitimate complaint regarding an "animal" deal gone bad, then we can still post here.

I do not agree with just a blanket "push the delete button" if someone has a legitimate complaint with KS.com or any other website. I want to be able to look up an individual or website and be able to decide for myself if I want to do business with them.

At the same time I think the web wars or having a "bashing" section in the forum is unnecessary and petty. I believe it will lead to more problems.

Rich, I am glad that I am not you. I feel like you are trying really hard to end this feud, without losing yourself or your "morals" in the process. I don't envy your position of having to try to find a place of equilibrium in this situation.

Regardless of what you decide, I stick by my first post...I do admire and congratulate you for trying to put this behind you. I hope you are able to come to a decision you are comfortable with.

With sincerest thanks for all that you do...
Terri Manning

I do admire you, Rich, for making an attempt to put everything behind you. But I'm afraid that I also have to say that I think that deleting the Web Wars forum was a bit abrupt. So many people do remember the varied events that started the animosity against Kingsnake and those threads were one of the few outlets around for people to state their grievances.

But there are two quotes, and one issue, that is especially disturbing me. The first is from the front page of the "Reptiles and Amphibians" section of this site as the description for the Original Board of Inquiry section. The second quote is part of an earlier post by Seamus on this thread with your answer to him included.

This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.

As a pure hypothetical, say I were to pay you (Rich) for a banner ad, the needed steps on my end are followed but the banner ad dies due to a computer glitch and never ends up being seen... You (again, pure hypothetical) refuse to refund the money paid for services never rendered...

Would that be appropriate BOI posting material?

The difference, as I see it, is that the electric company is not a herp related business and kingsnake.com (and other herp websites) ARE. In your own words, the BOI is for specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. Kingsnake.com is most certainly a business in this industry - they take people's money in exchange for advertising and web hosting services.

I agree that this site specially focusing on the foibles of another site is going a bit overboard. But what I understand you to be saying is offering special protection to herp sites/forums (even those that have a heavy business slant); a protection that I don't believe you would ever dream of offering to any other type of herp-related business. And that goes beyond ending the feud.

Kingsnake.com is most certainly a business in this industry - they take people's money in exchange for advertising and web hosting services.

That argument won't hold water. People can claim that the power company is a part of this industry because without power they can't maintain a healthy climate for their animals. The auto industry certainly would be part as well, because most people need transportation in order to do any number of things for their animals. The question is, where do I draw the line.

I have decided that the line is between the buying and selling of actual herps and the supplies directly needed for their care and maintenance, and everything else. Web site hosting and advertising just falls on the wrong side of the line. If you buy animals directly from JeffB or kingsnake.com as the selling entity, then now you have grounds to post here about it.

Trying to recall the threads that were in the Web Wars forum, I am trying to relate those that might be within the focus of this site.

Why would the actions of the moderators at kingsnake.com be worthly of inclusion? Why should I care that they deleted the messages from many people and probably had a hand in the banning of many people?

How about someone aggravating JeffB to the point where they got banned from that site? What difference should that make here?

Someone please explain to me why those topics should be included on this site. If not those, then what other topics would be relevant for inclusion here and why?