Illegally captured NA wood turtles Exposed

I'll admit to being one of the first to jump on this and was somewhat harsh in my first reply, but decided to read a little further into VT's wildlife laws. Woods are definitely not a protected species in VT.

Ok Ken and the rest,
    I read on too!  And Everywhere I have read on the NA woods, they are protected threw there range and or/ are restricted with a permit!.  Which I believe applies to VT!  I have a call into my fish and willife official who renews our import export license to see what he says.  If you look at the classifieds on turtletimes you will see he has posted adds for NA woods for sale or trade!  Also he has repeatedly posted many species intigious to the area of vt as well!  Like I posted before I am not here to ruin anyones reputation just the topic at hand.  I was sent a 1.1 wood turtles told to us to be a 1.1 cb pair.  As I learned within a few days after thier arrival they were indeed wc and loaded with parasites!  And again she has yet to be re-released!  she is as we speak in a rehabilitation center trying to make the grade for release!   The lies were what led to this post!!!!  She was taken from the land and told to be bred on captivity!  Also I was aspecting a clean pair!  When I hear from the fish and wildlife I will post again!  Also read on about gary moore on turtletimes classifieds forums!  As yo usee there you will learn of a short tempered man who has done this many times before!  He posyed there many times in the past few weeks trying to cut my throat after I started this thread making me out to be the bad guy, I was doing what I thought we all wanted and that was doing what was in the best intrest of the animal at hand!  As I thought we all were here for!
Thanks
Vic Machese
Exclusively Exotics

To quote aNOTHER
"It is also forbidden to SELL, TRADE or otherwise accept ANY compensation for ANY native species (Cornsnakes too folks) without special permits. What this means is, that I can send up to five of any native species to someone with no legal ramification(s), as long as I expect, nor receive any compensation for the animals. This also applies to captive bred indigenous species..... kind of makes it tough to make a living selling cornsnakes in Virginia, IF you follow the letter of the law explicitly." spam_ Unfortunately as far as he not selling others he deleted the ads for the NA Woods from turtletimes but I hsave contacted the administration for turtletimes to get them from archives so they are accessable for everyone so my point can be stressed. spam_He may not be so dumb! spam_But anyways the point of all was as you stated a permit is required? spam_Show me the permit!!!!!!!!!!! spam_If he is going to lie of thier orgin do you really think he can legally collect them?
Thanks
Vic Machese
Exclusively Exotics

Since you have quoted my words, I'll reply.
I live in VIRGINIA, not VERMONT......

I'd like to ask you what it is that you import? Are all the animals you import captive bred? You're making a huge stink about a guy catching a few wood turtles, but did you ever stop to think where the animals come from that you import with that license of yours? They certainly don't come from nice clean captive breeding programs, and they aren't generally looked after very well prior to being shipped over here. I know folks that import wild caught animals too, and they lose a lot due to parasite loads.

The bottom line here is that Gary is no Saint, but you've got plenty of wild caught animal's blood on your hands too. You're an enabler. You enable the collectors in foreign countries to do EXACTLY what you have accused Gary of doing here. The only difference is that the imported animals get collected and abused and you can't see it. They arrive in a nice box at the airport with documents that make it all so nice and legal.

Think about all the negative things you've said about Gary in this thread the next time you buy some wild caught animals. See if some of the negative things apply to you or to the guy on the sending end of your shipment. The truth is that you buy wild caught animals for the same reason everyone else does. You buy wild caught animals because their CHEAP. Most people rationalize their decision by telling me that they don't want to wait for captive bred animals to become available or for them to sexually mature, or they want to introduce new blood into their breeding program, but the truth of the matter is that it's all about MONEY.

If you REALLY want North American Woods, you can buy captive bred babies and raise them up. I get the feeling, and I have it from a pretty good source that you agreed to trade wild caught spotted turtle(s) for the woods you received, and then you managed to kill the wood turtle by attemtping to medicate it.

I have a few questions for you.... Have you EVER purchased wild caught turtles? Have you EVER purchased wild caught Woods, spotteds or any other species of concern in ANY state in the US? Have you EVER sold any of the above?

You see, the reason I ask is that you have NO WAT of knowing if the animals you (may have) bought and sold were collected legally or illegally, due to the very nature of our country's loose borders within each state.... Case in point.... I attended a show in Raleigh, NC a month or so ago. I overheard a guy asking one of the vendors if he wanted to buy some spotted turtles.... No, he didn't have them with him, but it is ILLEGAL for him to collect, buy, or sell spotted turtles in North Carolina.... this guy OBVIOUSLY knew what he was doing, but it didn't matter to him a bit..... the vendor was VERY interested in buying the turtles even AFTER I told him that buying / selling / collecting them in North Carolina was ILLEGAL..... he didn't care..... he wanted to make MONEY.

So before you point out that someone else is a crook, or that they're "Illegally capturing" (which is a joke.... he can capture ALL the Wood Turtles he wants) animals... you need to be sure that you're a very straight shooter, and that none of you business practices have gray areas in the ethical areas in which you accuse others.....

This is my last comment on the matter unless you quote or otherwise involve me again....

Hi Vic,
I'm not posting in Gary's defense. My objective is to merely clarify the law to everyone involved, as several people have erroneously assumed woods are protected in VT.

There are only four protected reptiles in VT. They are the spiny softshell turtle, spotted turtle, timber rattlesnake, and five-lined skink (reference Title 10 Chapter 123 of the Vertmont Statutes Annotated.

As per the Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife's Explanation of Legal Status and Information Ranks, which is available on their website, Special Concern is an "Information category only; not established by law".

Ken, I understand wh y you posted why you did.  And I agree, if thats the law than thats the law!  I was informed it is illegal, but if I am wrong I am wrong.  If it is not illegal then it's not illegal!  As for you Tom, I have no idea what you are talking about as far as the accusation you have placed, that I was going to try and sell the woods for spotteds before I over medicated them.  Well I am a proffessional with certification in the vet. Medicine field.  I take care of sick animals for a living.  What I do with reptiles now is a side project.  I highly doubt I killed them from over medicating.  And as far as I was going to move them for spotteds, that is BS.  And I would assume you got that straight from gary, which I am glad you have had nice trades with him, and I am glad he sent you free stuff!!!!!  Do you think he really caught a female crossing the road and she laid the eggs with him in a few days?  Do you really think that?   I'm not going to bash anyone but you made an accussation which I will not stand for, I am sure everyone else on the boi would also like to see proof of your misleading lie, and I'm sorry Tom you lied for everyone there!  And as far as the import/export thing goes, yes I have my license's, yes I brought stuff into the country!  Since 9-11 I haven't, do to my own personal fears for the country, you never klnow what someone you never see can put in your box.  I never brought in anything that was listed in any appendix, or cites.  I never brought or took out of the wild any protected species even though it would have been legal because I do have and could obtain any of the proper permits.  And one last thing, as far as the wc thing goes yes you are correct I do have several w.c. animals in my possesion, which all are my E.African Mud turtle colony, and 2 hognoses!  Everything else is Cb.  That is another reason why we stopped importing animals, we saw our flaws and decided to do cb!  Is that wrong?  The point still stands I did not know these were a WC pair, They were suppossed to be CB!  I got mislead and now and now I am in the wrong?  Thanks for your replies, everyone should get t o see everything.
Thanks
Vic Machese
Exclusively Exotics

Oh and I got a little carried away with what you said about me trading these for spotteds?  But you did mention you could "Give away anything"  without legal ramification, as long as you don't get anything in retrn right?
Does this look like he was intending on getting things in return from others:
http://www.turtletimes.com/classifie...?TOPIC_ID=1448
Thats all I have to say and I shouldn't have to defend myself over these accussations!  Which I may add Is BS and REALLY PISSING ME OFF!  If you could not tell!  For all who knowme and bought animals off me everyone knows the type of guy I am!  So with that enough said!
Thanks
Vic Machese
Exclusively Exotics

Vic,

You need to learn to READ before you REPLY.

I said you were supposed to be sending a spotted turtle for the wood turtles you received. If this is a lie, then I stand corrected. Wild collected turtles rarely die within a few days of being collected, even with high parasite loads, as you suggested in your original post.

Since you're a "Professional certified Veterinary"  (Just what EXACTLY are you certified to do?) whatever, can you tell me the medications and dosages you administered to this fatally parasite ridden turtle?

I never accused you of anything. You said that you treated the turtle for parasites and it died. If it was breathing when it arrived, then I suggest that the death of the turtle was caused by the drugs you gave it. If I am wrong, which I doubt, I apologise. Your virilent reaction suggests to me that I hit a nerve.

You also failed to answer the questions I asked you concerning the animals you import with your "import permit" that you so conveniently commented about in an earlier portion of this thread, where I might add you began this entire business by falsely accusing someone of illegal collecting.

How many wild caught (North American species first, please... followed by the imports) animals do you have, have you sold or traded... and last ut not least, is it not true that you originally agreed to send Gary a spotted turtle for woods??

You see, when the truth gets out people start name calling and making threats. I've never called you anything other than an ENABLER, which I stand by to the end. You enable people who collect animals the opportunity to SELL them because you want to PROFIT from it. Now, you're angry because the turtle you thought you were getting one heck of a deal on has died, and you are at least partially responsible for it having been removed from the wild, because you WANTED a CHEAP turtle. Whether you want to admit it or not, that's the truth. Now you want to climb up on some holier than thou soap box and scream FOUL as loudly as you can because your cheap turtle died and the guy that sent it to you is REALLY ANGRY that the turtle he sent to you is deceased.

You can get mad at me all you want, but the facts are that you told an untruth to begin this entire thread... "Illegal capturing" and all..... and now you want to be angry with me because I have interjected a bit of thruth into the thread. It's all right, Vic, I've already been threatened once by someone who didn't like it when I pointed out the holes in his story.

I'm sorry you feel like it's okay for you to write anything you want here, but that when I posted something you don't like, you get all mad. That's the trouble with airing dirty laundry in public. Sooner or later someone's going to look up and noticce that some of your laundry is not only dirty, but that some of it has holes in it too..... As I said in an earlier post, Gary is no saint, but he isn't a demon either. I'm no better than Gary or you, Vic, I just don't think it's fair of you to BLAME Gary for everything here without accepting at least a little responsibility for the collection of and subsequent death of one of the turtles. Hey, it happens all the time. We just don't seem to care when the animals come from Africa or Indo. Somehow we only get self righteous when the animals are from North America, like we have the market cornered on "special" animals.......

I'm sorry you're angry with me, as it was never my intent to make you that way. It was merely an attempt on my part to show you how skewed your perception of the situation has become. I have nothing to gain or lose from this thread, and I apologise for having upset you. We all need to think REALLY hard about what it is that motivates us in this hobby. Unfortunately, in many instances, GREED is a huge motivating factor. If it is love for the animals, and the keeping of same that motivates us, then we shouldn't mind (we shou expect really) paying more for captively produced animals. Each and every one of us carries some guilt for having blood on our hands if we buy wild caught animals.

I hope you READ this one before you reply. It will go a long way toward raising the quality of the dialogue.

I do read before I reply, and I am not angry with you for what you posted at all!  If YOU READ MY POST I THANKED YOU FOR POSTING YOUR REPLY!!!!!  I was angry that first off you said I was trading the wood for the spotted before it died, and yes you need to be corrected.  If you follow your own words re-read the original thread.  As I clearly stated, I was not keeping these turtles for myself at all.  I was merely holding them for him till he could get his act together!  Yes I am a certified Emergency Vet Tech.  I work at an emergency Hospital here in Pa.  Yes I see animals and help them everyday!  No I do not dose my animals myself the Dr does!  I took the stool and the animal in ran the fecal and then weighed the turtle for proper doseage.  And again I was holding the animals so it had nothing to do with a "cheap animals as you repeat over and over again"  And again I felt bad for him so I was going to send him a b'grade spotted turtle which was Captive bred!  Only because I felt somewhat bad for this guy.  I wasn't sending the female back, and yes she is not dead the male died!  She is alive and well and no longer in my care.  And post like yours is what makes me hate the boi sometimes.  When a self righteous person things he "sees a holes" in a thread and jumps in all high and mighty.  And to your answer of course I have sold wc na species in the past.  And again I have already told you what wc species I own right now.
In retrospect, I am not mad at you just the accsation that I was trading these turtles(which you were not clear in your original post about), and that I was the reason the one died. &nbsp;One died(the male and yes a fresh caught turtle normally doesn't die, but do you think a parasite loaded sluggish animal is faster than a healthy one?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??). &nbsp;I have already said if I am wrong about illegally captured I am sorry, and yes I do read before I reply, I suggest you do the same. &nbsp;Now I never threatened you or will, I am not that type of person! &nbsp;I am not mad you, I don't know you, and I have no knowledge of you before this post and I do not put judgement on someone before I know them. &nbsp;And I was again sending him the spotted months upon months past the turtles arrived. &nbsp;Now I am not going to start a little war with you, if you feel the way you do and do not want to reread and rethink thats fine, I don't know you and I do not care to keep repling to your post, it's a way to common scene on theis site and I am not here to be entertainment for everyone elses amusement! &nbsp;And for all that care, the female is doing well and will be sleeping naturally this winter! &nbsp;Be big and lets not pick!
Thanks
Vic
Exclusively Exotics

I apologise for the things I said that were incorrect.

I have not been completely fair in my posts on this thread. I think the whole "illegally captured" aspect of your initial post got me seeing red. I failed to take my own advice and I didn't read everything you wrote. I get a little miffed when people make a huge stink (NOT YOU) about the sins of collecting North American reptiles, who then make exception for anything collected anywhere else... including threatened and endangered species.... for the sake of making money.

I am sorry for clouding the issue related to the animals in question, if that's what I did, and I am sorry for anything hurtful I may have written or implied. I believe you are a good person and I do not want to make you out as a bad guy here. After speaking with you, I am sure that I misinterpreted your message, and I believe you are sincere about the animals you keep.

Please accept my apology. At no time did I believe you were threatening me.