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USA State Specific Issues Issues that are specific to a particular state, or subregion within a state, should be appended to the existing relevant thread. NEW threads cannot be created in this forum.

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Old 12-15-2003, 06:09 PM   #81
KNOBTAIL
DARIN, I believe the mere fact

that the vendors did not ask if they had a permit was enough to cite them. I could be wrong here, but Rob from RK has a better handle on the Fla laws here. Jerry
 
Old 12-15-2003, 09:20 PM   #82
herpetological
It does seem to be petty... However, in Florida we have a number of people that go in and out of the business on a daily basis. We have quite a few "station wagon" dealers. These are the people who go to the wholesalers, load up on "cheap stuff" and sell them to anyone for rock bottom prices. They do not have a shop, overhead or do they sell legally! These permits and the way they are structured allow Florida to track and INSPECT the facilities or business's of these people. This has a two fold benefit... revenue and a way to insure the proper care of the specimens being sold. This is what the law was intended for.... I think this reverse sting is not in the "spirit" of the law. They should be possing as buyers and writing citations for those selling without permits. Then again that could be viewed as entrapment as well. Now... if the person came up and said I have one scarlet king to sell...it was my pet..
Then, there is no issue. It's when it turns into what is considered a commercial transaction.I.E. 3 or more specimens and in particular native species. Notice they did not offer an exotic species. I think that was just to add more credence to the fact it was connected to Florida. Since, you still need a permit to sell 3 or more specimens wether they are native or exotic. The permits start at 3 or less, 3 or more, 11 or more etc. Although, it's not on the same level... selling Alligators is regulated just as well..If you sell them you need the permit...if you buy them you need a permit...you must file a transport permit for purchase(If you didn't breed them yourself) and file a transport permit when sold to another permited person. You must keep copies of the origin and sales at all times. There are reasons behind these regulations. Just a thought...it might be easier to simply have a blanket law. Anyone selling 3 or more specimens must have a permit. Anyone, buying 3 or more must have one as well. Anything under this is not regulated or considered a "commercial sale". At least that would make it easier. All laws are a "matter of interpretation" from the officers in the field, to the judge. It might "suck" sometimes but, I think it does more good than harm. Let's just hope the agencies use a little "common sense" when it come to enforcement. I seem to be rambling... sorry NEED SLEEP!
 
Old 12-15-2003, 09:30 PM   #83
brucestephenson
I believe government should stay out of our lives, our business, and our hobbies. I grow tired of people using the cops and permits as an excuse to harass people they don't like, and people they feel are competing with them.
 
Old 12-15-2003, 10:12 PM   #84
KNOBTAIL
RAYMOND, I am a bit confused

about your post at least in reference to this situation. If FW wanted to do things the right way, they could have entered the show, provided credentials and checked to see that all the vendors had the necessary permits.

In this particular situation all they did was attempt to intice the vendors into showing interest in Scarlet Kings, and they were cited. Their was no mention as to quantity, or where they were caught or whether they were a pet, etc.

I hardly see the positive side of this as a revenue ploy by the state of Fla. I do see this as a harrasment based on a petty idea some moron came up with at FW. I am just glad that this can go before a judge and hopefully this nonesense will stop.

From my perspective, they can only do this ONCE. I will make sure that vendors are aware at any show I will participate in, and I hope others will follow as well. Thats the only way you can beat these bastards at their own game. JERRY
 
Old 12-16-2003, 12:10 AM   #85
Mike B.
Hrm

Now while I agree with what most people have said about what the officers were doing as being slightly petty (they should be more worried about illegal importers, poachers etc), and Im also not sure if this has been talked about, but the officers actually did nothing wrong from what ive heard in the incident. Going through the police academy, and when I was in the process of looking for a job until I decided to go into a different field, I have a slightly different look then what most have on this subject. Cops or other policing agents are given a bit of leeway when it comes to telling the truth to people either in interrogations or even with busts like this. Its similar to prostitution busts. I did some real quick research on this and this is what I came up with.


"It is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. "

"In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.
"

Im posting this to give a different viewpoint and not to start an argument, even though I have a feeling it might be coming
 
Old 12-16-2003, 01:17 AM   #86
Wilomn
You know what's really amusing about this entire thread? All these people getting bent all out of whack over what happened in Fla., whether it was legal or right or whatever......

The plain and simple is, if you find out what laws you need to follow to sell at these shows, regardless of where you are, and then actually FOLLOW those laws, you won't be in any trouble at all.

It's all well and good that guys like jerry want to be their brother's keeper but, how far do you go? When is it the responcibility of each individual to take care of himself? If you can't follow the rules perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game and these little stings will weed out the rule breakers eventually.

Ask to see a permit if you're supposed to buy from permit holding sellers only. When in doubt PASS. If you don't know what the rules or regulations or laws are it's no ones fault but your own if you break one and get in trouble. Do the research first.

Pretty simple to me.

Wes Pollock
 
Old 12-16-2003, 02:50 AM   #87
brucestephenson
My contention is that the rules or even having the rules are wrong to begin with. I would be perfectly willing to debate without getting nasty or personal.
 
Old 12-16-2003, 03:34 AM   #88
evansnakes
Wes, do you check the laws in your city every day? Your county? Your state? The federal ones? No. I doubt in fact that you check them very often and the reality is that most show dealers, in the Ohio case and others, have been "breaking" the "law" as it were simply because the law was changed behind closed doors and they were never informed or given an opportunity to do things the new right legal way.

If you are an agency that is supposedly trying to inform and do things by the book, then why not make all your info public and go to shows and give vendors all the info they need. Next show if you come back and they are breaking the law there is no excuse. But how in the hell can you be law abiding when every square inch of this country has different ever changing regulations????
 
Old 12-16-2003, 10:21 AM   #89
snakebstr
Evan WE cannot, But as was said earlier they are just looking for funding either through fines or the permits themselves. My opinion is if they cannot survive on their own then they should shut the mess down and not try and stick the petty laws on US to collect revenue. How much of the money generated goes back to florida wildlife and not the officers(i.e. paying wages or saleries) busting some vender for trying to buy a snake from a kid/officer who either doesn't have the snake or is tired of caring for it in the kids case. How can they Bust you if the enticement animals don't exist? In this case SELLING ANIMALS WITH OUT A PERMIT(NO SNAKE NO CRIM, Because even if he(vendor) aggreed to buy the snakes the officer never even had them, Or just because the Vender didn't ASK for a Permit before talking with the guy about buying a few unwanted snakes, this is crazy. I hope someone got this situation wrong because I would hate to know I am paying the government to do such acts. I know they do some pretty shabby acts but BUSTING someone for not asking if the have a permit to sell animals seems a little out of bounds, What about the officer that doesn't have a permit? Should he then be charged for Attempting to deceive someone in order for them to break the law? I am almost sure I would have been busted because I do several shows in the eastern part of the country and have never heard of this kind of permit where you(the vender that has a permit) has to check everyone you buy from to make sure he/she has a permit. Are any other states like florida? I am now wondering how many times I should have been busted. I think OHIO has a permit like this and Georgia does also. Hummmmmmmmmmm guess I will have to do some checking around. Since I BUY a lot of animals for PEOPLE walking around every time I hit a show. My ending statement IS That THE BUYER of the snakes shouldn't get in trouble if they have the permit required as at most shows the vendors need sometype of permit these days. The only one that should get in trouble is the guy that doesn't have His/her permit when selling animals or It shouldn't even apply to someone that only sells a few snakes they don't want anymore. Thanks DAVID
 
Old 12-16-2003, 10:40 AM   #90
brucestephenson
If the agents are going to spend thousands or probably tens of thousands of dollars in salaries and support to do which is in reality petty harassment, I would like to know exactly what law in the U.S. Constitution gives them the power and ligitimacy to do it.

For instance, the Constitution specifically prohibits all States from interfering in commerce. Why am I not required to buy a permit in order to have furniture or a television in my home?

Would that be because the sellers and manufacturers of these products simply are too rich for the agents to impose a permit upon their customers? Or is it simply Unconstitutional?
 

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