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Old 10-27-2004, 01:44 AM   #21
robin d.
actually if rocal-D wouldnt work , neither will ammonia !! Rocal is just a brand- name given to a Quaternary Ammonia Compound
first off, only a percentage of 10% amonia or better will kill cocidia... what you buy at the grocery store is ten percent without even diluting it. and i am sure rocal doesnt contain that much amonia

IF i didnt know better than what he told me or didnt i would be treating them in vain , and he would get several overpriced office-visit charges
so what you are saying is you are not going to take the other back to get fecales and just treat the whole entire lotregardless of whether they have it or not? nice.....

apparantly you have found a vet you like. and thats find but to self diagnose and medicate no that not right, i understand you want to learn but trust me having a scope and doing minor fecals is barely the tip of the iceberg.... like i said alot of things can look alike their are different kinds of cocidia and many illness's can not even be diagnosed via a fecal float. it is one thing to want to know more and be inquisitive but when you cross the line in diagnosing your animals guided by a book, thats a bit different. and medicating them subsequently...... i do not think you know how dangerous MOST of the medicationms are out there... the dosing vary from species to species... metabolism takes a big role, age lots of factors... some medication require fluids in conjunction to keep the liver and kidneys from shutting down. there is so little known about reptiles and reptiles illnesses and disease as it is and to self diagnose or go the "shotgun" approach is just ignorant
Old 10-27-2004, 01:50 AM   #22
robin d.
also are you ready if by some chance your wrong or dose to much, that you kill your own animal and you have sit and whtch it die ... a death by your own hands? are you prepaired for that? trust me i know what i am talking about, i havebeen like you and yeah i wanted to learn it all and i still do but yes i have overdosed an animal and had to watch it die....7 years with reptiles you come across alot of things..... and you learn alot of things mostly by accident... i am just trying to help you understand, what the consequences of your actions could cause.
Old 10-27-2004, 03:15 AM   #23
no i understand you completely !VERY sorry to hear that

that is NOT at all what i meant robin i said nothing like that , no idea where u got that from ....and NO im not happy with the vet ! he MIGHT have assumed i knew what to do ,since i mentioned i have bred geckos in the past OR just completely left out the MOST important steps in eliminating the problem ! how could i be happy with that ? i did know i need to keep everything very clean and sterile , however i had no idea that only ammonia will work to kill the beasts! so i cleaned and used only alcohol , and put them back into "dirty" enclosures thinking that was sufficient ! either way that is just WRONG to not give such vital information about sterilizing their houses BEFORE putting them back , and exactly which chemical will actually work on coccidia ! like i said .................... IF i didnt know better than to" use antibacterial soap" like the vet told me , the treatment would have NOT worked period ! then who STILL has sick and potentially dying geckos ? and who has a few extra office visit/fecal charges ? i knew soap and water would not work , so i asked "what about nolvasan ?" what about alcohol ?" i never specifically asked will it kill the parasites , should i really have to ask that specifically ? NO that info should be given ! he is registered herp-vet ...i AM sure he knows that , if not is in the wrong business ! if someone asks me that , i will say YES they work to clean/sterilize but NO they will not work to eliminate any loose parasite , and of course i will say only ammonia will work , and to be very cautious using it ! he should offer all of that info to ANYONE even another vet ( cause you never know what others know or dont know ) !!!! he says "yes that will work " could have just meant to clean and disinfect .....never gave specific information on how to kill any existing parasites (in cages dishes etc.) that will only be re-introduced to my gex while supposedly being treated !! never even mentioned ammonia !!
Old 10-27-2004, 03:27 AM   #24
Vets and vet techs usually don't identify down to the species level anyway. There are a lot of variables when figuring out the proper treatment for parasitic infections, but in my experience, vets don't take those variables into account. They just look at the weight and prescribe medication following the same formulas regardless of how heavy the parasitic load is.

I'm no advocate of at-home remedies in lieu of vet expertise, but I think people are more capable of doing fecal flotations than they realize. Coccidia is not too hard to see. Nematodes are not hard to see. However, other protozoa such as giardia are easier to miss. It takes practice if you're not used to using a microscope, but it's a fantastic experience if you're biology-minded. If you don't know more than what you've read in a book when it comes to different medications, I recommend following the guidance of a vet. And if you're dealing with something as important as coccidia, you should still have your vet do follow-up fecal tests rather than relying on your own eyes while you're still learning the ropes..
Old 10-27-2004, 03:37 AM   #25
Dan, I'm willing to speculate that your vet is just a cat-dog vet. With cats and dogs, usually medication alone is enough. But reptiles are confined in a limited environment and basically have to walk over their poop all the time. Cat-dog vets don't take this into account because they're not aware of how easy it is for reptiles to reinfect themselves.

For the record though, antibacterial soap can't kill coccidian oocysts, but it CAN remove them. Soap works to break up the intermolecular forces that keep pathogens attached to objects, so you're essentially washing them off even if you're not killing them. You don't see vets washing their hands with ammonia in between visits, do you? No, they just use ordinary soap.

I dealt with coccidia in two of my geckos. I was able to obtain negative results on follow-up fecal tests without ever having to use ammonia. I just made sure to replace the substrate everyday, especially the humid hide substrate, wash everything down with soap and rinse well, and feed them from a bowl so I knew they were eating off a clean surface. Crickets could run around, step on the poop or eat it, and then perpuate the infection, so I just stuck with mealworms.
Old 10-27-2004, 03:50 AM   #26
you are very right about learning by accident

i started keeping -seriously when i was 17 or 18 y.o. , (had some swifts ,iguanas , and tarantulas even before that) bred various chameleon species and fat-tails by the age of 21 ,was forced to sell my collection and have been herpless (lol) for several years ,until this year ! im 28 now , but i have "been around" and NOT at the pet-shop !!!!!!! WE ALL seem to learn things the same way , through trial and error (unfortunately) !!!!! i have dealt with worms before , but honestly never had a coccidia infection ! which is scary , back in the day lol when all we had was "hi-yello" LG`s "cryptosporidia" was unheard of in geckos !
Old 10-27-2004, 04:25 AM   #27
thank you olivia thats exactly what i mean

fully intended to keep using a vet while i learn and im sure it will help to do so ! robin just got the wrong idea there ..... im pretty sure he is a registered herp- vet ! that would make sense not to use ammonia , if you dont really have to ! it is dangerous even to us !! could be why it was not mentioned ! well i feel a little better now , i was thinking if yur not killing it , it is still there ! funny actually im a hazardous-waste worker , guess i just simply do not understand this type of biological-contamination ! thanks to marcia thursday i will have a copy of "understanding reptile parasites" and will learn alot more !
Old 10-27-2004, 04:44 AM   #28
Dan Lubinsky
Olivia, You mentioned success with obtaining neg. fecals after + for coccidia. Did you go the Albon treatment regimen or achieve results thru fastidious cleaning and let it run its course? Thanx for your insight, these posts are the kind I really like about this forum. Of course, I am a guy and do go right to the pics first - but I do read the articles also.
Old 10-27-2004, 04:55 AM   #29
Dan, I used Albon in conjunction with fastidious cleaning, but the strange thing is that my vet prescribed a lower dosage than what's recommended in the reptile books. Instead of adminstering Albon every three days, I did it once a day for three days, then repeated it two weeks later, then again two weeks later. It was two weeks after that the first negative results came in. And then another two weeks after that before I stopped cleaning the enclosures everyday. Both geckos came from the same breeder, but one of them had a serious case of coccidia because he also had hookworms working against him. Even with the reduced dosage, I noticed the Albon really slowed him down so that he stopped eating and spent most of the time sleeping. I bumped the temperature up to the mid 90s while he was sick, and it seemed to give him an extra boost.
Old 10-27-2004, 04:56 AM   #30
have dealt with worms before , but honestly never had a coccidia infection ! which is scary , back in the day lol when all we had was "hi-yello" LG`s "cryptosporidia" was unheard of in geckos !
Oh Dan, trust me, coccidia and crypto were out there, it just wasn't something that breeders talked openly about.

If your geckos were diagnosed with coccidia, you definitely have a good chance of getting them well, if, like has already been stated, you treat with Albon and practice fastidious cleaning then you can beat it.

Crypto on the other hand, although it is a form of coccidia, is a whole different ballgame. While there has been some encouraging information posted here recently regarding crypto treatments, it is, in most cases that I have heard of, a death sentence for your animals. I am sure some will disagree, but once you get crypto in your colonies, the chances of saving the rest from infection are slim.

I would recommend medicating the coccidia infected animals with albon at the recommended doses, and cleaning cages once or twice a day, changing paper towel and using disposable water bowls and hides. Throw them away each time you clean. Also use ammonia but like has already been stated, make sure the enclosures are completely dry and free of nasty fumes before placing your geckos in them. You can beat coccidia in leos, but it is definitely a pain in the ass. But worth it in the long run, as I am sure you already know. Feel free to call me if you have any questions.

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