worlds first spider carpalls

That is one cool looking snake hybrid or not! Congrats!

Originally Posted by ReptileJay

The reason an albino retic crossed to an albino burm do not produce albinos is that, since they are different species, the gene for amelanism is different (or in a different location). When there is only a single copy of a recessive gene, the dominant phenotype is expressed.

I am sorry but this is not a correct assumption

The gene for "amelanism" (tyrosinase, tyr) is not different, there is only one gene for tyr in any given species, it is the same gene, structurally and functionally, between snake species (and even between genera, the tyr gene extends down to insects and up into humans). So if you breed a T- Albino ball to a T- Albino carpet you will get all T- Albino carpalls.

It is quite simple, you get one defective tyr gene from the ball parent and one defective tyr gene from the carpet parent so the offspring will have the two defective tyr genes and, therefore, the mutant phenotype. And the genes need not be located at the same locus. Since the offspring get half their chromosomes from one parent and half from the other parent then they would still get the mutant gene regardless of which gene it was located on. So if the tyr gene in balls is on chromosome 1 but on chromosome 7 in carpets if you look at the offspring it will have one of each chromosome from each of the species (i.e. one ball chromosome 1 and one carpet chromosome 1, one ball chromosome 7 and one carpet chromosome 7) which gives you two copies of the try gene despite the the fact that they are "distant" from each other

As far as other recessive traits... It would depend on the gene. If the Hypo gene is one that is shared between species then the hybrids could express Hypo. Same would apply to Axanthic or Pied or whatever.

so what was the total number of eggs? and what was the total number of hatched? and number of spiders?

that one looks sick man would luv to see how the others look.

Originally Posted by asplundii

I am sorry but this is not a correct assumption

The gene for "amelanism" (tyrosinase, tyr) is not different, there is only one gene for tyr in any given species, it is the same gene, structurally and functionally, between snake species (and even between genera, the tyr gene extends down to insects and up into humans). So if you breed a T- Albino ball to a T- Albino carpet you will get all T- Albino carpalls.

It is quite simple, you get one defective tyr gene from the ball parent and one defective tyr gene from the carpet parent so the offspring will have the two defective tyr genes and, therefore, the mutant phenotype. And the genes need not be located at the same locus. Since the offspring get half their chromosomes from one parent and half from the other parent then they would still get the mutant gene regardless of which gene it was located on. So if the tyr gene in balls is on chromosome 1 but on chromosome 7 in carpets if you look at the offspring it will have one of each chromosome from each of the species (i.e. one ball chromosome 1 and one carpet chromosome 1, one ball chromosome 7 and one carpet chromosome 7) which gives you two copies of the try gene despite the the fact that they are "distant" from each other

As far as other recessive traits... It would depend on the gene. If the Hypo gene is one that is shared between species then the hybrids could express Hypo. Same would apply to Axanthic or Pied or whatever.

Is it in fact documented that the gene is the same? If so, how is it possible that there are different strains of albino... for example, Sharp/Kahl albinos in boas. Also, how would that account for a simple organism such as the filamentous fungus Neurospora crassa, which has a number of genes that when knocked out produce albino strains of the fungus?

If the genes are in fact the same, how would you explain why the breeding of an albino burm and an albino retic does not produce an albino hybrid? (If that has in fact been attempted)

Originally Posted by ReptileJay

Is it in fact documented that the gene is the same?

Do you mean between balls and carpets? Or the tyr gene itself? IF the latter then yes it is documented. The

tyr

gene is near universal and its structure and function are not radically changed between genus/species. There have been experiments done where the tyr gene from one organism has been swapped into another organism to show no change in function

If so, how is it possible that there are different strains of albino... for example, Sharp/Kahl albinos in boas.

The pathway for melanin production is a many step process. The first step is wholly dependent on tyr so if you knock that out the whole path to synthesis is stopped dead. However, it is possible to mutate other genes that effect other parts of the pathway thereby giving rise to a different type of albino, hence the term T+ albino. There can be only one type of T- albino but there can be numerous types of T+. Depending on where in the pathway the mutation is and how extreme the mutation, a T+ albino can look very similar to a T-. Kahl and Sharp are a great example of this. Sharp strain is a T+ type albino which is why it produces the Paradigm when bred to one of the "caramel" strains. The Sharp and the "caramel" are alleles of the same gene but it is not tyr. The same situation exists with the Clarke line of retics.

Also, how would that account for a simple organism such as the filamentous fungus Neurospora crassa, which has a number of genes that when knocked out produce albino strains of the fungus?

Same situation as above. Different genes in the pathway, when knocked out, will give rise to types of albinos.

If the genes are in fact the same, how would you explain why the breeding of an albino burm and an albino retic does not produce an albino hybrid? (If that has in fact been attempted)

Has an albino retic been bred to an albino burm? If so, which strain of albino retic was used? And which strain of albino burm. That is why I was very explicit when I said that both parents had to be T- for the hybrid to display the phenotype. If you are crossing different types of T+ or T- x T+ then you will not see a phenotype.

My apologies, the first part of my reply should have read:

Do you mean between balls and carpets? Or the tyr gene itself? If the latter then yes it is documented. The tyr gene is near universal and its structure and function are not radically changed between genus/species. There have been experiments done where the tyr gene from one organism has been swapped into another organism to show no change in function.

I accidentally hit "quote" rather than "italics"

Originally Posted by asplundii

My apologies, the first part of my reply should have read:

Do you mean between balls and carpets? Or the tyr gene itself? If the latter then yes it is documented. The tyr gene is near universal and its structure and function are not radically changed between genus/species. There have been experiments done where the tyr gene from one organism has been swapped into another organism to show no change in function.

I accidentally hit "quote" rather than "italics"

If the albino phenotype is caused by a defective tyr gene as opposed to a gene within the pathway, then I suppose you would be correct. But is it documented that it is in fact the tyr gene itself that is responsible for the albino phenotype in both carpets and balls, or simply a gene involved in the tyr pathway?

I suppose I cannot argue that it is absolutely impossible that the hybridization of an albino x albino of two different species CAN occur, I just think the likelihood of it easily occurring in a single generation is slim, taking into account the number of genes/regulatory elements that could easily result in a mutant phenotype when disrupted.

Originally Posted by ReptileJay

If the albino phenotype is caused by a defective tyr gene as opposed to a gene within the pathway, then I suppose you would be correct. But is it documented that it is in fact the tyr gene itself that is responsible for the albino phenotype in both carpets and balls, or simply a gene involved in the tyr pathway?

I do not believe that any of the reptile albinos have been absolutely documented as being T-, it is just assumed that they are as T- is one of the most "common" mutations that spontaneously occur.

A quick PCR test would work to give you the answer, would not cost more than a few dollars to make up the primers and find someone with a thermocycler to run it...

I suppose I cannot argue that it is absolutely impossible that the hybridization of an albino x albino of two different species CAN occur, I just think the likelihood of it easily occurring in a single generation is slim, taking into account the number of genes/regulatory elements that could easily result in a mutant phenotype when disrupted.

I understand and I did caveat my initial post to that effect (i.e. depending on what we are talking about what are the odds of two different organisms being related.) But I believe that with T- it could quite easily be done if someone had the gumption.

Well... yes, of course, PCR is inexpensive (about $7.45 per primer [30nt]) and effective... however... DESIGNING primers is EXTREMELY difficult, considering that the genomes of these species have not (to my knowledge) been sequenced at this point in time. While the protein sequence of the tyr gene is likely highly conserved in eukaryotic organisms, this does not in fact mean that the nucleotide sequence is conserved... (degenerative genetic code, codon bias, etc). In addition, you would need to design primers specific to each species, since they will not be the same.

You clearly have a fairly decent understanding of molecular biology... just out of curiosity, are you a student/graduate?

hi every one i cant go back and forth with every q & a , but the proof is in the pudding.
i proved them out , and will be doing albinos in the future.buy the way 10 eggs, 7 hatched,5 spiders,and 2 reg, 2 infertall, and 1 not fully formed.
thanks,
gus & adam
GLexotics