what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

to question weather or not it is beneficial to cross gene pools can be answered with a semester of your time, a text book and a few bucks. kelli i don't even understand why you are here. you show up on the thread saying your ex used to hybridize snakes and you disapprove of the practice than next thing you know your thanking my partner for his civil justification for practicing the same thing. so you picked up your old copy of Golden Books Reptiles and Amphibians to define a few terms and now your an expert on hybridizing and why its bad?

please i would like to know. where is the crime? whats bad about hybridizing and please keep any supremist comments of yours off of snake discussions.

Seamus... such hatred. i'm not suprised at all by the 7 warnings you have aquired over time. i can see why you've chosen to focus your energy on insects. my question to you is why have you chosen to ignore my posts on the other thread. afraid i was making too much sense?

also what sort of valueble groundbreaking science have you guys discovered thru your purism?

that pyros crossed with pyros produce similar looking pyros? wow. gotta admit thats one for the books... i'm gonna call darwin on that one, he'll be mindblown.

anyway that's about all i have to say until of course the purists begin picking appart everything i said. but worry not. i'll be ready.

you know its too bad your breeding bugs seamus... with your purist beliefs i'd probably buy a snake from you to throw into one of my hybrid projects. maybe i can get some ants off you for my skinks. they like pure ants better.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

My problem with hybrids is this:

A breeder crosses normal alterna with albino nelsoni. Produces hets, raises them up and breeds hets together. Out pop a few "albino greybands". This breeder sells a pair of these to someone else. This person raises the pair of albinos up, breeds them and produces more "albino greybands". Person posts ad on kingsnake.com for
AWESOME ALBINO GREYBANDED KINGSNAKES, MUST SEE!!!!
or something similar. Nowhere in his post does it call these snakes what they are, which is hybrids. Now granted many of us know there is no true albino alterna but many may not know this and think that they have one. If any herper ever catches an albino greybanded kingsnake he might as well keep it a secret because NO ONE WILL BELIEVE HIM.

That's pretty much why I am against the hybrid thing.

First off...

I'm not breeding bugs, read a bit closer there Sherlock.

Secondly, once again, grand and dramatic statements have been made that insinuate that some understanding of reptiles as a whole or these species in particular has been acchieved, yet...

No specific information has been given.

You say you learned about the properties of pigment and pattern... Well, WHAT did you learn about these properties?

You said you learned about universal attractiveness of pheremones in snakes... Again WHAT did you learn about these pheremones?

You state that you have learned a breeding response is stronger than a feed response... yet also say that, were anyone else to attempt this bastardization of species, they would fail... This represents a fundamental contradiction in your claim. Were the breeding response stronger overall as a matter of biology... Then anyone else attempting this would have equal success. You can logically make one contention or the other... probably be wrong as you have shown an astoundingly poor grasp of biology, but logically you could claim one of the above to be true... But the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

You state that you are learning that the snakes in question were much closer genetically than was previously thought... Please then oh fount of nevernding knowledge (With knowledge situationally defined as lies and misinformation) write up a new taxonomic structure for all of Colubridae as evidence of your newfound understanding.

Yes, you ARE learning that Seamus is irked by snakes with big eyes... that ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE BIG EYES this "bubble eye" that the animal on the left in the pictures is displaying is a defect... Understand? A condition that acts in some way to debilitate the animal by making them less fit... one that crops up often with intensely line bred snakes and more often than it should in these crimes against nature that are perpetuated by the ignorant.

any time you add new genes to an animal ( including humans) you are bettering it genetically by freshening the gene pool of that animal. you are in fact adding dominant genes that have been naturally selected over hundreds of thousands of years to a snake that would otherwise not have them.

The above is quite possibly one of the stupidest statements I have ever seen anyone make while pretending that they were serious about the nonsense they were spouting.

The dominant genes of each of the three involved pure species evolved independant of one another for a reason, had greater success fufilling their ecological niches separate from the genes of the other snakes involved and were kept separate by naturally isolating behavioral deviations. If this disgusting bug-eyed, ugly-ass mutant cross that you're so proud of were genetically superior and the snakes were inclined to breed on their own when under conditions where their instincts haven't been retarded to the point of non-existance... Then they would exist in nature... Except, the parent species involved don't live anywhere near one another and the areas where the ranges come the closest, these hybrids are never found.

Do you know WHY these hybrids are never found?

Because the very definition of the word "Species" denotes an interbreeding group of animals and they don't interbreed!

Seamus... such hatred. i'm not suprised at all by the 7 warnings you have aquired over time. i can see why you've chosen to focus your energy on insects. my question to you is why have you chosen to ignore my posts on the other thread. afraid i was making too much sense?

Quite frequently I choose speaking my mind over the use of tact, accepting the punishment in order to deliver a better point.

Like I'm about to do now for instance... You are an illiterate if you can't differentiate between the words "Seamus Haley" and the words "Gordon C. Snelling"

Incidentally, I read your response on the other thread, I did choose not to respond at that time and I'll explain why...

• You clearly hadn't read the actual thread you were responding to or the one it was linked to (Two threads ended up running parallel and were combined into one discussion).
• You clearly don't have even a basic understanding of biology.
• You clearly don't understand the fact that you don't understand biology... being ignorant even to the existance of your ignorance.
• Already I had seen the glimmers of these lies you have been spouting... Trying to wrap what you have done in the mantle of science, an attempt to confuse those who might not know better into believeing that you might know what you're doing... It sickens me. It really does act as nothing short of an insult to people who actually have made it their mission in life to further the understanding and knowledge of these animals to have ignorant sacks of... You... to be claiming some mastery over herpetology or evolutionary biology or taxonomy or genetics, especially when you refuse to actually provide any concrete information that you have gained from this disgusting display of greed and stupidity.

If it's science... Actual, reasonable research into the biology of the parent species, then please answer the following...

What hypothesis did you form before undertaking this experiment?

What steps did you take to ensure it wasn't a contaminated experiment?

What conclusion have you drawn about the genetics of the animals in question as it relates to taxonomic revision?

What conclusion have you drawn about the existance of isolating factors within the species natural behavioral patterns?

What conclusions have you drawn about the genetic dominance of pattern that you claim to have been studying in light of the offspring having clearly different patterns and markings?

Where's the rest of the clutch?

For the love of all that's good and right in this world, what kind of deranged sicko are you to think that those... things... pictured are better looking than the pure species that compose the background?

True, the last one doesn't address your claims of acting for the advancement of herpetological science, but it's a valid question to be certain.

And Rich... There are two older threads where we hashed out some of those definitions pretty thouroughly, through a few acts of consensus, about a half dozen or so of the more active fauna participants arrived at a point where an agreement was reached about the science involved if not the ethics. The species definition and some of the other slightly more technical issues take a while to type out, but they're there if a search is done.

Ahh Seamus, Here I was banging out a response and you beat me to it. However I will certainly bow to your superior eloquence.

However I will certainly bow to your superior eloquence.

Eloquence nothin'.

I'm just long winded.

Chad-

Whoa! You said:

kelli i don't even understand why you are here. you show up on the thread saying your ex used to hybridize snakes and you disapprove of the practice

Well, you are halfway correct, i do disapprove of the practice but if you go back and read what I wrote (don't forget to comprehend it also, please) was that my husband used to hybridize colubrids, not my ex.

Secondly, you stated:

next thing you know your thanking my partner for his civil justification for practicing the same thing.

Yes, I did thank your partner for his civil reply. Is that such a horrible crime, to be polite to someone? Oh, I guess it is for you since you are so damn rude! See Chad, i am a grown up, and I can have an interesting, thought stimulating discussion with someone about a topic we disagree on, and I can still be civil and polite! You should try it sometime!

Then you wrote:

so you picked up your old copy of Golden Books Reptiles and Amphibians to define a few terms and now your an expert on hybridizing and why its bad?

LOL, this is funny. I defined the terms of Genus, Species, Subspecies and intergrade as a reply to the post that was written right before mine, by the Webslave. He asked the following of us:

To start the ground work for a well rounded discussion, will someone please define the terms "species" and "genus" for me?

Did you not read the Webslave's post? Or perhaps you did read it but did not comprehend it. He asked for definitions, I gave them. Most people that are familiar with genetics don't need a "Golden Book of Reptiles" to define said terms, they apply to all living things after all!

As far as me being an expert on hybridizing, I am absolutely NOT and have no desire to be. I am simply expressing my opinion about the practice. As far as I know that's what a discussion forum is all about, correct?

please i would like to know. where is the crime? whats bad about hybridizing and please keep any supremist comments of yours off of snake discussions.

READ Chad and you will see I have already expressed why I feel that hybridizing is not a good thing. It's my personl preference, not a witch hunt. Play nice :-)

Along with what Kelli was saying...
No one knows if there is such thing as a pure leucisitic black ratsnake or if they all are the results of a texas/black rat hybrid. Kenyan and Egyptian sand boas have been hybridized so much that the Egyptian pattern has been almost completely lost, and we can't import these snakes anymore.
And we also can't forget what happened to Indian pythons.
There are probably more examples.
Also, I personally enjoy my snakes because of all the adaptations they have to their specific natural environment. It's kind of like having a little piece of Egypt or Brazil or Ohio living in your house. I'll admit that I do a bit of morph breeding (ok, I'd LIKE to do a bit of morph breeding), but having a snake that's a product of three different species living across a continent from each other holds no appeal to me. I might as well just buy a dog. Oh wait, I have a dog. She sure is cute, but dumb as a box of rocks compared to a wolf, and wouldn't last 4 hours on her own. Guess those dominant genes really helped her out. She's kind of bug-eyed, too.
I'd just like to hope that there's more to this hobby than animals that look cool or unique, that people appreciate snakes for their snakeiness and not their colors or relative rarity in the hobby. They just should be pets more than status symbols.

Erin B.

P.S. Seamus' responses were a lot more restrained than I though they would be, especially given the amount of thinly veiled insults. I probably wouldn't have been as nice!

P.P.S. Yes, exactly what HAVE you learned? It's not like hybrids within the 'lampropeltid' (pantherophis, lamp, pit) group are rare or anything. People stopped being suprised that those snakes could interbreed years ago.

P.P.P.S. I thought I knew what a species was before I got into snakes. Oh well!

you realize how many irrevalancies and assumptions are littered throughout your bullsh*t response, right? i'm sure you do. i'm supposed to sit here and type up the details of my observations to prove what exactly? that there was results?! oh i know you're still pist because i mixed you and your other cross burning friend up... sorry i clump all of the simpile minded people i come across into the same group because there is no real reason to distinguish you from one another.

So while none of your sharp (dripping wth sarcasm) observations really says anything other than the lie that i supposedely have no understanding of biology i will atempt to battle your long winded respose.

why are MY hybrids never found in nature? a mountain here, a river there... obviously because there are obstacles in the terrain that prevent them from breeding with one another or even meeting one another in nature. A mountain being in the way would be a good reason RIGHT? here let me spell it out for you... THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT PLACES!!! geddit? did it sink in that time? does this mean that thier incompatible and unable to produce viable young? obviously not. do they produce abominations of nature? no. the only thing that prevents you from liking these snakes is the fact that they were produced at the hands of man and not in nature. had someone found this snake somewhere you would probably wet yourself in astonishment from its vivid coloration and impressive pattern. but you will of course deny this seeing as how it was produced selectivey in the confines of a house.

what exactly are you saying about yourself with your're constant attacts on my charecter? that you possess this knowledge that you claim i don't. if i sicken you with my breeding practices than i've managed to accomplish something of value. maybe. on second thought, probably not. fortunately i get enough pleasure from what i do to where i really don't need you. FOR ME or AGAINST ME. lets go into what it is you do... what it is you know... and what it is you breed... clearly not much. what have you learned by NOT practicing hybridization???? well....?

what REASON is it that these dominant genes have evolved independent of each other? you said there was a reason. so what, a pyro or a corn snake couldn't survive in northern california where cal kings are found...or would they eventually become cal kings through natural selection seeing as its so accurate in its choosing the proper genes for its environment.

after you answer that question you can tell me how you've managed to recreate the habitational needs of these animals seeing as their genes were so selectivly picked.

wheres the rest of the clutch... what seeing three different examples wasn't enough for you??? insufficent data?

as far as my clear contradiction stated in my previous post. the fact that they do not eat each other doesn't mean that breeding them is easy! it makes it easier, granted and that is because thier insticts are still intact enough to provide the animal with the prethought that hey maybe thats a mate and not a meal. for you to constantly make ignorant statements about hybridization being easy is getting a little old considering you do not hybridize and probably never have. the reaction of the snakes when introduced varies from case to case but in most cases you will not get a feeding responce when introducing a corn snake to a kingsnake given the time of year and age of snakes.

i'm done with you for now. so go ahead wade in your pool of self rightousness and ignorance. i'll be back with more when i get a free minute or two. i've got abominations to create.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

TELL IT ON THE MOUNTIAN!!!
I NEED TO HANG AROUND HERE MORE, NICELY PUT CHAD in the last part of youre statement you said that they tend not to eat each other I must add to this.
assuming they are of very similar size or the snake eater a little smaller and properly fed they tend not try to feed on the mate.though I have had couple cal kings that would try to swallow a cows tail if i let it ,and a thayeri swallow a mate or two.

if you are playing with pheromones you can decrease the feeding response even more

Anyone who calls those that disagree with them 'simpleminded' is just turning their insult back on themselves. Please grow up enough to have a discussion about an issue without resorting to namecalling. Honestly...
It makes you look as if you have no facts to defend your position, and weakens your arguement.
If you keep all your hybrid offspring I really can't say I have a problem with that. Some people like ugly snakes. But the second you start selling them, the chain reaction begins...



Erin B.