VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

This is a story regarding a recent purchase of leopard geckos from Sean and Monica Niland at VMSherp.com Buy with caution.
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Last Saturday(Oct 31st) Katherine and I went to the VMSherp website and found a group of six female leopard geckos we really liked and decided to buy for our future breeding colonies. We looked at all the pictures they had posted and from what we saw they all looked healthy and without deformities. (We also hadn't ever head of anyone having any problems with Monica and Sean)

So we ended up ordering the group and we split the cost down the middle. When the geckos finally arrived Tuesday Nov. 4th you would not believe the shock we got upon opening the package.

One of the geckos entire skull was without a doubt deformed and three other's had noticeably kinked tails. None of these deformities where mentioned on the website next to the animal's photos, and the photos themselves did not show these animal's issues.

I don't have the actual photos from the site as they were taken down right after the purchase due to "construction". I do however have these pictures showing exactly how deformed my female bell albino was upon her arrival.











You can see that the side of her mouth turns directly up under her eye and actually ends too soon compared to the other side. Also there is an obvious point of bone jutting out over her ear where from the side her ear is almost not visible like most geckos.

Here also is a photo of one of the kinked tails, which actually in our opinions almost feels like a break more than a kink. We will never be sure, but we can't say we were satisfied either way.



I went on to e-mail Monica concerning our disappointment about what we had received and here are the e-mails we have so far exchanged. (My e-mails will be displayed in red while VMS will be displayed in blue)

Hello,

I haven't bought from you directly, but my friend Katherine Sommer recently purchased some geckos from you and we went half on the price of the six. I picked three from your site and so did she. However, what I didn't notice was in one of your pictures posted of a bell albino I picked out the female's head was badly misshapen. I was buying these for future breeders and now I am sure I can't breed this female without having her offspring being deformed.

On your site you state that you sell ' high quality reptiles', but this is rather disappointing. Especially since due to the angle of the photo of the bell albino the head looked completely normal and no where did it mention that this geckos head WAS indeed deformed.

Also Katherine has two of her three geckos with kinked tails that didn't looked kinked in the photos or mention anywhere that they WERE kinked. I would say this is kind of stretching saying they are high quality as now we will not be able to breed these females or it is at least NOT recommend because it's likely genetic and will cause major and perhaps painful deformities in the offspring. This was our whole point in purchasing these otherwise stunning females. We wanted a breeding colony and now...more than half of what we purchased can not be bred.

I wanted to know if there was something you could do about this. I am not trying to be rude, but you should either state they are deformed or get better photos SHOWING these problems before you sell them to someone. I am very very disappointed and I think we might as well be entitled to some of our money back as we paid 360 for this whole group of misshapen geckos.

Sincerely,
Chelsea Peli
(please e-mail me back directly at this address)

Dear Chelsea,
We certainly do not want anyone to be unhappy with their geckos. I am
looking at all of the geckos this morning looking for deformed heads. I
have never seen this problem. If possible could you send us a picture
of the deformed head.

Sincerely,
Monica Niland
VMS

What surprised me the most here was that they were actually ASKING me for photos of this gecko they sold me. They supposedly were not even aware that the bell albino female's head was so deformed. Honestly, if you are a breeder how do you not know this about what you are selling to someone? Plus, she had to now go double check all her geckos? Again, why would you HAVE to being a good breeder.

However, I made sure to send them PLENTY of photos showing what was wrong. Here is the e-mail I sent minus the photos as most are already posted above

Hello,

Here are the photos to show you exactly what I mean about this gecko.

I have also taken photos of two of my other personal geckos so you can clearly see the difference in the heads overall shape and size. The other ones you also shipped to Katherine Sommer had well developed heads compared to this(despite having the tail kinks). Did you not notice the deformity in her head when you shipped or took the photo for your website? Not trying to be rude, I just think it's very obvious as I was shocked when I opened the package the day she arrived.

I have sent so many pictures so you can see it from a bunch of different angels. I am not trying to be rude or treat you like an ignorant person. I just think it's very important that you can see what -I- see since you probably didn't notice this even before shipping.

It was a bell albino female and the only one that you just shipped out to Katherine Sommer. I noticed the photo on your site is now down probably because the construction, but if you still had it around I would like to look at it again.

I am not sure what you can do about this, but I -do- feel something should be done as I would have not purchased this gecko for ANY type of breeding had I known it was that deformed in the face. It's offspring will likely have problems if it's already this bad in the parent. I feel breeding even geckos with tail kinks is rather unethical.

Sincerely,
Chelsea Peli


Dear Chelsea,
Thank you for the photos. Clearly this was an oversight of ours. Had
this problem been identified before shipping we would not have shipped
the animal. We are not perfect though we strive to be. I will need the
stock number for the gecko so that we can issue you a refund.

Sincerely,
Monica Niland
VMS

Again, I am not very happy with this reply. I never got the photo of the gecko on the site like I asked for and without us discussing what I wanted to be done she found the number and refunded the money to Katherine right after that e-mail when I was not around yet during the day.

I actually wanted a replacement animal without any deformities as it was still supposed to be going toward be a future breeder. (Bell albino specifically) I didn't want to be rude for at least receiving part of my money BACK though, so here was my next reply.

Thank you,

It's much appreciated! I still wasn't trying to be too harsh or anything, but clearly that was a little shocking to see when I pulled her out of the box. I understand that you might have too many animals to notice everything about them before they ship.

I do want to add though on my friend's behalf, that Katherine also wanted to know if she could receive a refund for one of her geckos that had a rather bad and noticeable tail kink? Since we BOTH bought these for breeders and now only about three of them might produce any surviving offspring it's kind of disappointing for the both of us. Here are photos of her gecko's tail...it was the tremper albino mack.

You can see it's completely bent to the one side, and she says she can feel a lump as if the bone is poking out. She thinks maybe it was even broken rather than this being a tail kink, but we can't be sure either way and it still looks pretty bad.

I also wanted to know that since you were willing to refund my money if you would be willing to actually REPLACE this gecko for the breeding colony I had planned to have by taking that 45 back and sending another gecko.

Another bell albino would be exactly what I want, but would you be willing to pay for the shipping to send it to me? If you could, please let me know. There was another bell albino that interested me when I was looking through them, but I would want to be positive that this one was also checked over for deformities or -any- tail kinks. The ID number for it is I-L007 if replacement was possible.

Sincerely,
Chelsea Peli

What I got next was a little shocking and whenever I do get an e-mail it seems that half my questions are not answered. I don't know if they actually read my full e-mails or what, but this was what I was sent next which I found slightly insulting. Sean is now replying for his wife and supposedly she is the one in charge of the leopard geckos. I don't know why she got "confused" by what I was saying if she is a breeder of these reptiles.

Monica has forwarded this to me, as I don't think she understands what you are talking about with regards to tail kinks and breeding. To be completely honest, I don't think you understand it correctly either and have confused her. Which is ok, I've spent twenty years of marriage confusing her....

Regarding tail kinks, they simply are NOT genetic, but are instead a developmental anomaly. We've come to this conclusion for the following reasons after breeding them for three decades in great numbers.

1) Years ago, I deliberately set up groups of kinked ones as a test and they did not produce kinks. Pretty much ruled it out right there.

2) If it were genetic, it would run only among particular bloodlines here, such as in hypo carrot-tails, but not in blizzards. In other words, group D would produce them, yet Group H would not. This is not the case, it merely appears at random throughout our entire assortment of hatchlings, as it does with all other large scale breeders we've communicated with.

3) If it were genetic, it would also appear consistently, yet it does not. A given breeding group may produce a few one year, but not the next - indicating the problem is not a genetic one. Since all eggs from a given group are incubated in the same container, I tend to suspect slight differences among incubation conditions each year.

4) Cornsnake breeders have uncovered that excessive moisture content in the medium during incubation causes kinking in baby snakes. Over the last four years, we've reduced kinked snakes to perhaps ten or twelve this year (out of some 1600 hatchlings), as opposed to many dozens in years past. We've used the same principle to reduce tail kinks in gecko numbers as well.

5) Additionally, other egg stress factors may play a role, such as eggs dehydrating or absorbing excess moisture prior to removal from the egg-laying cups for incubation. This is actually my guess for the few remaining developmental anomalies we see each year, as it explains the random nature of the thing perfectly.

Don't get me wrong, without doubt there will be developmental anomalies which prove to be genetically heritable, but tail tip kinks certainly are not. Babies produced from such parents simply will not exhibit defects as a result of their parentage.

Long story short, we have never felt tail tip kinks to be a significant issue and do not ordinarily warranty for this. However, if you are dissatisfied with your order, please feel free to make arrangements with us to return the entire order for a complete refund.


Sean Niland

VMS Professional Herpetoculture
e-mail: sales@vmsherp.com
website: www.vmsherp.com

Last I knew tail kinks were considered genetics and have never been proven otherwise. Why they think they have proved this is beyond me. It's especially irritating that they are breeding and selling countless numbers of lizards with tail kinks and not even marking them on the site as if it IS just a normal occurrence. Most other breeders I speak too and or see producing leopard geckos don't keep breeding tail kinked geckos and surely mark any problems next to the animals photos if they do happen to have a problem. It sounds to me as if producing deformed geckos is an everyday thing for them and this really upsets me that people might buy these unknowingly. I can't say I was happy when I sent this next reply, but here it is...(notice again half my questions were ignored from my previous e-mail)

Well,

we definitely have a difference of opinions on how tail kinks work then as I have been told repeatedly from other breeders/and in reading countless books that they are genetic traits and it is considered by most unethical to be breeding parents with tail kinks as it might produce deformed offspring. Maybe this is even what caused the bell albino you sold me to have such a messed up head as it doesn't just meant the TAILS will be deformed down the line. How you still didn't notice the deformity was a real shock to me.

I suppose you wont do anything about it as you've stated, and I wont fight you for it then....but we are not returning the entire order as this would be very difficult and shipping was already hard on the geckos as is. Plus they WILL be taken excellent care of regardless and I doubt anyone else would really want to buy my bell albino with the deformed skull. I will also still have my opinion on how tail kinks work as you can probably find out is not so farfetched yourself on GeckoForums.net when talking to ANY other breeder/vet tech on the issue.

So disregarding the tail kinks, I asked another question and your wife didn't answer it. I don't know if she didn't mention it or if she just didn't reply, but it was about my bell albino with the deformed head. I WAS refunded for the bell albino, but I wanted a replacement with no tail kinks and a normally shaped skull. I think I am entitled to this as most breeders replace the animal if there is a problem, and I can easily send the money I was refunded right back to you so you are not out any extra cash.

Please contact me back and let me know as this is what I want done concerning the bell albino female. Also I think if you posted somewhere on your site that the geckos you ARE trying to sell HAD these deformities/tail kinks it'd be much better for any person trying to buy them so they know what they are getting when they purchase them.

Sincerely,
Chelsea Peli

So far that has all I have received on the issue. I am hoping to get my replacement and I will continue to post the rest of the conversation as it goes along. I just want people to be aware that they don't even KNOW when they are selling deformed geckos and they consider kinked tails normal traits and they have yet to be marked on their site as well.

If you still want to go through the trouble of purchasing from them maybe you can get them to fork up some more photos of the gecko you are interested in, but I wouldn't count on it. they still haven't even sent me the before photo of my deformed bell albino and again....they obviously don't answer all question/possibly read the full e-mails you send out.

I hope this helps anyone when it comes to making a decision on whether or not to buy from them as I will most likely NOT be returning to them any time soon. I say again....buy with caution!


Thanks for reading,
Chelsea Peli & Katherine Sommer

That a pretty messed up situation but the seller did refund the money for the animal that was not as advertised. If you friend has such a solid stance on the tail nip than the seller has given you the solution by offering to give a full refund if you ship the group back. You dont want to ship the group back so you had effectively turned down the possibility of a refund. Now if this post is a bad guy post because you dont agree with them breeding kinked tail animals or because they dont pay enough attention to not deformities prior to shipping that is understandable. But as far as how they handled attempting to fix the situation seems correct IMO..

Also i want to warn you that you are currently violating the TOS of the BOI by have two people posting under the same Screen name.

Originally Posted by spyder79

That a pretty messed up situation but the seller did refund the money for the animal that was not as advertised. If you friend has such a solid stance on the tail nip than the seller has given you the solution by offering to give a full refund if you ship the group back. You dont want to ship the group back so you had effectively turned down the possibility of a refund. Now if this post is a bad guy post because you dont agree with them breeding kinked tail animals or because they dont pay enough attention to not deformities prior to shipping that is understandable. But as far as how they handled attempting to fix the situation seems correct IMO..

Also i want to warn you that you are currently violating the TOS of the BOI by have two people posting under the same Screen name.

I am not saying this because of the refund, it is just included in my overal conversation.

I am posting this so people can make sure to ASK for more pictures if they indeed want to purchase from them as they do -not- mark them or even notice their own animals have such deformities before shipping them out.

Or if they DO know they do not included it anywhere on their site (when I bought them). That to me is something a breeder should definitely do so people KNOW what they are buying.


As far as the TOS goes, me and her both run what we do as well as other people who run businesses together (married ect). We are both here when posting/posting together, but we do not post different things individually for DIFFERENT businesses. I thought this was allowed as I have seen it before and we have been here a while, but perhaps I am wrong.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the deformed head. I know that I, personally, have received geckos with kinked tails, and while we all have different opinions on that, I don't think that's the big issue. What she seems to be the most upset about is the gecko with the deformed head, and the fact that it was represented as a healthy, normal gecko. ANY gecko that is being sold with ANY kind of deformity should be considered genetic and should be sold as "pet only" in my personal opinion. Chelsea bought this group with the intention to breed. Not to mention, it wasn't mentioned in the ad for the animal! Chelsea DID receive a refund which was the right thing for VMS to do, but I do agree that she should have been offered EITHER a refund OR a quality breeder. Unfortunately, it states on VMS's terms: "We reserve the right to issue a refund in lieu of replacement solely at our discretion."

Then again Chelsea, maybe you just want to be done with these people. I understand you were specifically looking for a breeding group, but after seeing that i'm not sure i'd trust to breed animals that come from them.

Originally Posted by JordanAng420

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the deformed head. I know that I, personally, have received geckos with kinked tails, and while we all have different opinions on that, I don't think that's the big issue. What she seems to be the most upset about is the gecko with the deformed head, and the fact that it was represented as a healthy, normal gecko. ANY gecko that is being sold with ANY kind of deformity should be considered genetic and should be sold as "pet only" in my personal opinion. Chelsea bought this group with the intention to breed. Not to mention, it wasn't mentioned in the ad for the animal! Chelsea DID receive a refund which was the right thing for VMS to do, but I do agree that she should have been offered EITHER a refund OR a quality breeder. Unfortunately, it states on VMS's terms: "We reserve the right to issue a refund in lieu of replacement solely at our discretion."

Then again Chelsea, maybe you just want to be done with these people. I understand you were specifically looking for a breeding group, but after seeing that i'm not sure i'd trust to breed animals that come from them.

Thanks a bunch. I couldn't have said it better myself.

It was the head that sent me over the edge as the tail kinks I wouldn't have even MENTIONED otherwise. They actually were more or less just proof that they were sold to us with the kinks in this thread. (picture of at least one ect)
I even state that it's a difference of opinions between us and I am not going to try fighting them for a refund over the tail kinks. It's just the fact they were not marked on their website as well as the bell albino with the deformed head is very frustrating. I actually was going to see if they would address giving me a replacement in that last e-mail I sent and if not I will keep my money and be on my way/done with it all. No further problems.

I just wanted to know if they actually would go as far as to give me a replacement, but yes...I am totally skeptical of breeding anything they have dished out to us now.

Chelsea (or Katie, as the case may be),
It would be a shame to have your posts removed, and your message lost, because you disregarded your PMs.

i personally think a full refund is a fair option. had they not offered that, i would consider them a 'bad guy'. people make mistakes... it very well could've been overlooked prior to shipping, but i think you jumped the gun on the BOI post. i would've just taken the refund and found another breeder. simple as that.

Post removed due to violation of the full name rule. Since there are two names on the account, BOI posts must be signed to indicate the author.
hhmoore

I have purchased from Sean and VMS at least 3 times in the past... and every time I received what was advertised and I was very happy with each order.

Like you I ordered a 1.2 Bell Albino ... then about a month or so later I ordered a 1.2 Tremper albino.

I have also ordered several cornsnakes from them. Every last animal I have gotten from them has been perfect in every way. On one of my orders there was a problem with delivery... it was completely FedEx's fault... but they made it right with VMS... and in turn he passed it on to his customer. He could have just said nothing, but he didn't. He offered to pass it along to me.. and I requested a store credit. I knew I would be buying from him again... and I have.

I'm not saying I know everything about leos.... but as he stated... I have read that the tail kinks are due to fluctuations in incubation and not genetic. Maybe someone has proven it... and I dont know about it yet... Im just going by what I have read in the past.

Originally Posted by bradleymoore

i think you jumped the gun on the BOI post. i would've just taken the refund and found another breeder

I disagree, it's good to know about unethical breeding practices even if they do offer a refund. From their own description, VMS Herp "concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business". They are running a "herp mill" to supply wholesale markets, and clearly do not care about the animals they are producing or their small customers. Intentionally breeding genetically flawed animals and selling them without any warning is grossly irresponsible and anyone who is thinking about buying from them deserves to know about it.