Bill Leverton SCAMMER beware

Originally Posted by Neil Gubitz

The ONLY reason he made that "public promise" is because he was under duress, and felt pressured to do it, "or else"!.... period....
That's why he can EASILY change his mind.... because HE IS RIGHT!!.... They ARE two different snakes....
What he's being pressured to do (if he DOES give the money back), is almost extortion.... It's not right, and Bill shouldn't do it....
Can I make myself any clearer for you??....

Neil

Neil,

Let's look at the facts. I'm not commenting here on anyone's veracity. Bill has always been a stand up guy but imagine if it was someone else for a minute.

• The box came in with a hole in it -- how often does this happen? Do we have UPS documentation of it? If not it is he said, she said
• Bill got a refund
• Bill posts a picture of a very similar looking snake which to your eye is different but to others' eyes is the same. Remember that photographs are two dimensional representations of thee dimensional objects and what look like straight lines and relative distances can be easily distorted. If you doubt this, look at DAND's avatar.
• Bill's digital camera is gone. Again, not a comment about Bill, just being objective.

There is enough of an appearance of impropriety, there or not, that unless Bill follows through, as he will, it will forever be a stain on his stellar reputation, especially in light of the fact that he has already promised to do so.

For some of us, our word to do something is compelling enough, even when we believe that we are "right". Perhaps, Neil, your word means less to you than that. Now, "Can I make myself any clearer for you??...."

"The ONLY reason he made that "public promise" is because he was under duress, and felt pressured to do it, "or else"!.... period...."

Wow Neil, Are you psychic? Do you always speak for Bill? I think Bill stated his reasons very clearly. Period...

"That's why he can EASILY change his mind.... because HE IS RIGHT!!.... "

I just love objectivity.

"They ARE two different snakes...."

I guess your opinions are fact. I guess we can put that mystery to rest. Your magical powers will be a big advantage to the BOI in the future. When there is any doubt, we can all just wait for Neil to post.

Originally Posted by Neil Gubitz

Bill.... Although I disagree.... I can respect your decision.... Do what you think is best for your "name".... but, don't be surprised when someone else reads this and tries it for himself.... That's all I'm saying....Neil

Neil I do respect what you are saying and what others may be thinking.so I'm going to lay this out the best I can...This will never happen again and you can Quote me on this. I have bought, traded all the snakes that I needed now I'm selling the ones that will not suit my purpose out of 138 boas I have 13, 4 of which I'm keeping 9 which will be sold and I really don't see me buying anymore unless it is in person.and they of superior quality I'm really not in this Herp Community as a business man..I'm an over zealous Hobbyist with a dream that I will find a new Morph(everyones dream) just because this thread was started does not mean I have any less Respect for Lee I have to see the other side of this coin What if it was me or WW-JD I hope this sorta clears this up.

hate to get involved in this, but looking very closely at both pics, and having photographed hundreds of boas and balls--these animals have very distinct "fingerprints" so to speak. It never changes, only gets bigger with size-i would have to say and would be willing to bet after comparing many of the saddles-that these two animals are the same snake. Have nothing to gain from either party here, but have had there is a hole in the box thing pulled a few times on me and always sucked it up, but in this case, i would say these are the same two animals. One or two similarities i would give the benefit of the doubt, but virtually every dorsal pattern is identical in shape and white spotting within the dorsal which is usually very distinct. Sorry-i would have to go with them being the same-Ben Siegel

Bill,

May I just say that you have handled this very well and have been very polite.

I have a question for you since lee is gone. Can you remember how the snake was sent in the box? The more Details, the better.

Ok first off Ben thank you for your post, and I see how it does look like the same snake and I do understand the finger print thing But how does a snake go from 2' to barly 18" thats not my point though. my point is that even tho they have similar marking are you saying that the possibility that they are 2 different snakes is impossible? James it came packed really well except for the gapping hole and the smashed containter in side before this whole thing started as it stated in Lees opening line the snake was 375 and he sent the 200 back and I told him that I would split half the loss, Now if I was a scammer would I not just took it all back and hid the snake ???? I dont really know the mind of a scammer Because I dont have one

Thank you Bill, I appreciate you answering that for me/us.

That is the same boa, I agree 100% with what Ben said in his post. There are way too many identical markings!

Bill, if that is not the same snake, why Pay Pal the $200? Wouldn't you rather prove that it is not the same snake and that you are not a "scammer" as the title of this post suggests?

If you are sure it is not the same snake, borrow a digital camera, take photos from all angles, especially similar angles as the original pics sent to you of the snake that you say escaped out of the UPS box. Surely someone you know has a digital camera?

nothing in this world is impossible, but imo--those are the same snakes-i have had to do the match game many times on my own pictures and fully understand how an animal can vary from a picture from curves and body position. I do not know why you would offer to split the difference on the loss, but on the same note, i do not know why you would offer to pay the $200 back either just to clear your name--it sounds more like an admission of guilt. If someone accused me of something like this, i would be pissed off to say the least and would ask for the remainder i originally told him to keep back. Aside from looking at all of the circumstances involved in this ordeal---aside from the fact that is a 1 in a bazillion chance that you are selling the exact same snake, that also looks like the same snake that was supposedly lost in the mail---forgetting all that-----if someone from indochina showed me one of those pictures and someone from atlanta georgia showed me the other, i would still say those are the same snakes. As i said---just looking at the pictures--i would say those are the same animal period.

Basically what I am trying to say is, who CARES about the $200! In this case it is more important to prove beyond a shadow that those are two different snakes.

Also I will say that if you prove that is not the same snake you will get a profuse apology from me for doubting. It just looks like it is the same to me, sorry.