New Mountain Horned Dragon... questions.

Hello,

Great. I agree, the giardia is some nasty stuff for sure! That absolutely needs to be treated for sure with the Flagyl, so, no problems there. I think that alone if taken care of, everything else should clear up pretty quickly with a clean environment that you will be providing for her. I try to do as little drugs as possible on a dehydrated animal. This isn't your fault. The breeder should not have sold a wild caught animal to you, that is just not right.
Well, he is right in the fact that they can be nervous animals, & take a bit to acclimate. However, there has to be a line where you have to cross if they are severly dehydrated & or malnourished. You as the keeper have to decide when to start the assisted feeding. If you go too long, then they die of dehydration. I think you are doing fine, you have to intervene at one point in time to keep her from dying on you.
Yes, coccidia as well as pinworms are normal in their intestinal gut flora & unless they get really high they normally don't cause any problems, for the most part. Usually hookworms cause more damage & bleeding than the pinworms, unless the pinworms are extremely high in counts.
You could ask the vet for some critical care formula which is very good for sick lizards. They have carnivore & omnivore formulas available.
I am glad that she is sending the probiotics because they will really help her digestion once she is on the meds. I really hope that she pulls through for you.
I think your bearded dragon is going to be just fine though, so at least you don't have to worry so much about her, probably just a simple deworming or so should do wonders for her.
I will be anxious to see the counts for your bearded dragon as well as your MHD, too.
Hang in there.

Tracie

Hi Guys,
I'm glad you are taking the MHD to the vet for sure. The guy that sold you the MHD is an idiot. His deal is to buy WC cheap and be sure he sells them before they die. By the way, I think I redid my post when I was looking up the doses and meds and lost the part where I said that I got the meds and doses from Mader's Reptile Surgery and Medicine book...just wanted to let you guys know that I didn't pull that out of thin air. So far I've been lucky and haven't had anything that MTZ and Panacur didn't take care of.

MHD's naturally spend a lot of time just hanging out. They are peaceful lizards and I think they are so still much of the time because they are food for a lot of predators, they don't have any defense mechanisms other than sometimes looking scary and being really quick when they need to.

One thing I would definitely do is use papertowels or newspaper for the substrate until you get the parasite situation under control. I use Novalsan to clean my enclosures.

This is what I did with Pandora and the feeding....I got the carnivore diet from the vet and mixed it with pedialyte. I fed her 3 cc's 3 x day- morning, noon and night. I also offered the strawberry/kiwi gatorade several times a day with a dropper, she liked that and would open her mouth for it. I kept her humidity as high as I could and frequently misted. She spent a lot of time in the water dish. I had a bubbler in it and she seemed to like that. I also kept her enclosure a little warmer (82-84) than I do for well MHDs. I started using the mix of baby food that I told you about before the vet visit because it was the weekend and she seemed to want to eat that more than the carnivore diet so I switched back and forth to give her some variety. Despite all my efforts she died but I think she lived 2 months more than Marius because of what the vet and I did for her.

Since then, I have used the baby food mix for new MHDs if they aren't eating. Usually after doing that for a couple of days they will perk up and get after it. I also use the slurry mix if anyone is off their food and generally make it a couple of times a month - minus the greens - for the MHDs just because they like it and I put the herbal supplements in it. I bet when the meds kick in your MHD will really perk up because her gut will feel better....she's never going to be active like the beardie, they just aren't that kind of lizard. Usually you will see activity with the morning mist and putting food in for them...they will hunt and maybe swim, drink and climb around...then they will go to their perch and hang out, pretty much the rest of the time. They like to hang out on you and will pretty much stay where you put them....part of the staying still so as not to become someone's next meal to my way of thinking.

I hope everything goes well with your vet visit and that she gets on track. Angie

Hey ..
I know how disappointing loosing them both had to be, especially after the last one hanging in that long.was she still showing signs behaviorally or physically right up to that point?
Q? So was your MHD around 60 grams also, and she could handle 3 cc's at one time? I'm always afraid I'm going to give her too much. I've been getting about one cc in her at a time. I gotta say soooo stubborn. She will not mostly take it willingly. And I guess my hurrah was premature because she hasn't chosen to eat anything on her own again since! I've tried wax,crickets, meals, and now red wigglers. No interest at all. Ya , we're continuing w/ the paper towels for substrate. Keeping her humidity up too. Heres a question. everything says about 84 degrees tops for her. I felt that was due primarily to keep her from being dehydrated. In the past elevating temps a little higher then the norm has been one key in helping lizards heal at sick times. SO>> what do you of that thought, and what would be the max you'd keep her at and for how long? Since they are such a low ish temp sort of rep. I'm wondering what the digestion and heat situation is for them , Its usually been in the past that I wouldn't feed much at all past mid afternoon to very early evening. So they'd have plenty of time to digest while they were still in closer to optimum heat. But the MHD's temps don't really change nearly so drastically as the others. Oh the other thing the breeder told me was that waiting to feed her was OK because their metabolisms are so slow, being an agamid.I guess I don't know of any lizards that aren't slow? Also confusingly or maybe just to me? He said MHD's particularly don't like glass walls --because they are from the mountain forests and live in the trees. OK So following that logic I guess if beardy's or chuckawallas could shoot them selves they just would immediately upon arrival to their new aquarium homes! Since they are from the wide open spaces of the desert!!!! ANYWAY....
I'm so hopeful that getting rid of the Giardia will be a big difference. I can see where that could make the digestive period after eating a real bad time. Maybe thats why she didn't want to eat again after that effort, who knows. I added just a bit of aloe to her last mixture hoping that would sooth her innards a bit.
I feel like her mouth has got to be getting sore from trying to get her to open it. I've been using the q-tip but its still really tough. So now I soak it w/ ionic silver first so it can hopefully help heal it from any abrasions. She now has figured out that even if I get her lips open she can still grit her teeth together real good and keep her mouth closed from food!
I don't know this vet, so I hope he's good and can shed light etc.. Well feelin sleepy and grumpy but don't worry I won't take it out on you !
You know despite serious if not somewhat distressing subject matter , I feel these forums are supposed to be about people sharing, communicating, helping each other, and last but definitely not least --fun or at least enjoyable. Thanks you both for fitting my criteria! Lol! we'll check out the repticzone soon. G.

Hello!

A good rule of thumb to follow is for every 50 grams, you should give 2 cc's of food, so, I would say 2-3 is perfect. You could do just 2.5 or 2 on the lower end to make sure it isn't too much for her. IF she seems to be doing well on the 3 then by all means keep her at 3 for sure so she can gain some weight & stay hydrated.
I am really hoping that she will pull through for you! I know you are trying very hard. Hopefully once the giardia gets cleared up, it will help tremendously. Is her mouth raw yet? Will she not lick it off of the end of the syringe for you yet? She probably just isn't real hungry yet.
When are those meds getting there, this week I hope?
****Angie no worries! Maders book has several different values, & charts. I use his as a guideline, but also, Roger Klingenberg has a great parasite book out which is excellent as well. I always use a very conservative approach especially for dehydrated reptiles, they can go just like that. I feel so bad that you lost both of yours, that is too bad.
One day, maybe I will purchase a baby from you.

Tracie

Hey... got back from the vet... I'm going to make Gigi write up everything ( )since she actually went to the whole visit, I got there towards the end.
I don't know that we'll be seeing him again actually... she'll tell you more.

The counts are "too many to count on all of them". Oh, and the MHD also has Roundworms.
He did give her the first dose (a combo of Flagyl, Panacur, Albon). Everything should be here Friday from the breeder. We also picked up some Carnivore Care food mix. And did get little syringes and those red rubber tubes.
We may still have dosing questions on the Flaygl & Panacur. I need to make sure the concentrations are the product are what you all have talked about.
He did also say that a lot of these are likely just normal gut parasites, but with increased stressed they get out of control then cause a problem.
Gotta get to work...

I haven't ever heard anyone say that the glass bothers the MHD...not like it does a Chameleon...but you can always go with a Reptairum type set up with plastic wrap to keep in humidity. Mine are in enclosure with at least 3 sides of glass and no one seems to be freaked out about it. The babies don't know different because that's where they went when they hatched. The babies are so cool, they think I'm one of them - the momma - they are so tame and let me do anything to them...specially the older ones. The younger ones are still a bit skittish but they will settle down when I hold them. The older ones will climb right on my hand.

I'm gonna have to disagree about the glass situation. I think you need that to help hold humidity. They do need a lot of places to climb around even though they will settle in one spot and stay there almost all the time. My 2 females and 1 male that are together shift positions around but they mainly stay on the big stalks of the corn plant. they almost always are vertical. Someone once suggested that they do that for their digestion so you might want to make sure that your girl can climb up something to be in a vertical position.

As far as temp goes, I'm more on the low end of the temperature range. I keep mine around 71 at night and 78 in the day with a max ambient of 82. They do have UVB and bright white light (fluroescent) so there are places that they can climb to and be in almost 90 degree temperature if they want.

I used a 3cc feeding syringe with Pandora and I use that if I feed my adults slurry now....they will always eat the whole syringe full. Pandora wouldn't take more than 3cc's ever. Also, if you go to the 3cc place and you feed 2 nightcrawlers...that's probably more than 3 cc's. Bruja ate 4 nightcrawlers at one sitting the other day...that's a big honking bunch of worms. BTW....I think she might be gravid again...this time I know they are Diablo's!

I know you'll keep us posted, glad you liked the vet....I sure hope it all works out for you guys! Angie

Well... I think you need to post pics of Bruja and Diablo cuz we might need one of the babies.
We thought the guy was full of crap about the "no glass" thing too, for exactly what you said... humidity. She does have a couple places to be vertical, plus the paper towels. She does like to be vertical a LOT. She sleeps vertically.
Too tired to write more at the moment... we got a bit more food down her earlier after the, the new Carnivore Care mixture. She seems to have a little more alertness or something about her this evening, maybe the meds are kicking in already.

Hello,

I agree with Angie, the glass would hold humidity which is really what you need for her. That just doesn't make much sense.
Does she like the carnivore formula then? That is a good sign she is already just a bit more energetic then. Good thing you have more meds coming hopefully by the weekend, right?
They will sleep vertically especially when they are young, to help aid with digestion alot of times. If you notice, baby bearded dragons will do the same thing. The intestines are small & it must help things travel through better. The adults don't tend to sleep hanging like the babies do.
Definitely keep us posted. You are doing such a great job!
They said "too many to count" on the parasites & worms? Good grief. You can always give a count.

Tracie

Bruja and Diablo when I got them
[IMG]
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x265/Mad4You2/BrujaandDiablo.jpg[/IMG]

Close up of Diablo


Bruja when the first clutch hatched


Bruja and 2Toe....2Toe is on the wall


BTW...all the babies that I have in my posts are Bruja's - she was WC and turned out to be gravid and layed eggs about 2 months after I got her so I don't know who the daddy is....these babies are catagorized as CH. The next clutch will be CB - but short term CB not long term. Angie =)

Cute!!!! I love Diablo's little red neck spines.
In the 2nd pic Bruja looks so green and bright, but looks more red/brown in the last pic. Ours is more dark brown/green.
2 Toe is cute too.
Nice set up also. We're working on making hers better this weekend.

About the "too many to count" comment. That was one thing we didn't like. He had to go ask the tech how many and that's what she said. So we're suspicious. The way this office evidentally reports a fecal is to put a sticker in the file with the names of the parasites. Next time I will ask specifically for counts and a written report when I drop off poop. Although next time it will likely be a different vet. Instead of 10 min from the house he is like 35min BUT this other guy I think will be better. He actually has reptiles in the waiting room, and a reptile set up in the hospital/boarding area.
More later...