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Old 06-26-2007, 06:12 AM   #1
alessandro
about siklback and their husbandry

hy i am alessandro,
i am not disappeared, i was just away due to mu "normal" life.
when i started to see agian the forum i was a litlle bit surprised because there were lot of bad thing coming from a different way of reading and understanding things. and i am a little bit disappointed. when i was thinking to answer again then the quality of the thread went down. i decided to not answer. now as i like to be transparent i am here again

1) someone of you have put a part of a discussion translated from an iotalian forum, the strange thing is that someone of you have put a part of the discussion with a bad translation and not knowing the whole discussion. the discussion was about breeding two related animals and my answer was given in a ironic way saying that:it was possible to breed two brother but then they could arise problem like deformities, or if they do not apper, problem wiht the longevity of the animals, wiht the breeding result etc.etc. making a summary i was telling them that inbreedin was a big mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from now on if you want to puit a discussion present in another forum please be sure of the content.

2) i have spent lot of word explaing the way i arrived to silkback and the whole thing ended up saying that it is inbreeding. i already explained that leather and after silk are a result of a casula mutation which i am working to fix it.
i have used related crossing to verify the whole thing in a shorter way....BUT I SAID I AM AWARE THAT THER IS A SHORT DISTANCE AND ME AND DACHIU ARE WORKING TO OUTCROSSING THEM.
this is the way all the breeder of morph of reptiles do. i am suppossing i ma talking withj a community who know something about genetic and how the work is done in the reptile world. if people are not aware they should not make any statement but only making question to understand more.
at this moment you are questioning the way breeder like bob mailloux, ron tremper, bob clarck, rich ihile, pete kahl, brian sharp act!!!!!!!!!(sorry for the people i haven't mentioned). don't you think that fi the all breeder are acting in the same way maybe is the right way.

3) I AM Not ASKING ANYONE TO BUY MY ANIMALS.

4) after the all explanation on other forum the discussion was closed because the other people realized is a mutation. then there are people that like them and people that don't like them. again....put and read the entire discussion not a part of it...otherwise in this way is easy to demontrate what do you want....and this is not correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5) people have claimed that i have not answered to the question. it seems to me that there were lot of question that was repeated because people have not read the whole discussion, maybe i lost some question due to the fact that there wer to many comment on the reply.
so i decided to put all the discussion together.
i will answer to the question but......PLEASE READ THE ALL DISCUSSION FIRST AND IF YOU DON'T FIND THE ANSWER THEN PUIT YOUR ANSWER ON.

best wishes
alessandro
 
Old 06-26-2007, 06:14 AM   #2
alessandro
here is the entire discussion
please read it first

In a clutch of normal animal one was looking different, she was a female. We have decided to keep this strange animal and see what was going on. After 1 year she was a big fat female weighting 500gr so we decided to breed her with a nice yellow male.
In the same time they appeared on the web the first leatherback produced in the usa. Confronting the pictures they were looking similar (in the fact they are similar but there are big differences but I will talk of that later). We were assuming she was the same thing. There were not definite information if this trait was genetic and how could be transmitted, they were appearing randomly and noone had tested them.
The result in the first clutch was unbelievable, out of 18 egg there was 11 animals showing the same trait. So considering the genetic law this gene was acting like a dominance incomplete or codominant. I have called few usa breeder explaining them what were the results but the result they were having breeding the usa leatherback was different.
We have kept all the babies separated them in two small group, trying to create 2 different unrelated lines: one yellow and one red.
We have suggested that if it was a codominant then there could be a super form (and this one could be visible or not: two different example could be pastel in ball python and hipo in boas). We have crossed them back and the result was 5 silkback, 11 leatherback, 6 normal looking. This is a confirmation of the codominant expression of the gene. We have decided to call them silkback.
As far as we know now the leatheback gene that we have identified is completely different from the one in the usa so we think that maybe is not right to call them in the same way.
as we cannot kkep too many animals and here is still lot of work to do (outcrossing them to enhance the genetic difference, selecting the best colour etc) we have decided to share this project with dachiu and that's it!!!!

so now this is the story. it as casual mutation like albino like pastel like jungle like hipo like every mutation that change the standard conformation of the animal.
this is NOT DUE to things like OGM, nuclear reserch or other crazy things that i have heard (heve you considered how many money should cost a research with these techniques??? what would be the interest in doing that with pet animals???)....and is not due to photoshop (but if there is any professional user of photoshop who can do the same result, i do have a contact for an important society who was looking for that kind of person....big money offered)
is not due to imbreeding because 1) i keep record of my animals up to the third generation, 2) as a responsible keeper i always cross the animals in which there is the much difference. it is for that reason that i exchange animals with other breeder because i need to keep high the genetic pool inside my colony

Wendi: at the moment there is a certain amount of genetic distance between the animals to arrive to silkback but it is still small. As I said this is the starting point and lot of work need to be done. To see and detect how would act this gene we went over to find the result. Now that we know which is the result, the work will be to out cross several time the two lines and create a group of leather and silkback with a big “variety” of gentic. It is for that reason that I was pleased to share this project with dachiu, in this way we can work in two parallel way to achieve the best result in a shorter time. We have already planned to cross the silkback and the leatherback with different animals and then exchange again the animals in this way there should be a big increase in the genetic pool. This is the way it is done with all the genetic morph, most of the morph originates from one single animal.

To everybody: since few years ago, with pogona there was only a big work of SELECTING BREEDING. This mean that, even starting from a small group of animals showing some colour (surely not like today) that they were coming from a specific place, everybody was looking for the most coloured animals. Everybody was selecting the most coloured animals in clutch and then try again to breed them to enhance the colour. THESE PROCEEDINGS CAUSED IMBREEDING DEPRESSION, coloured bearded dragon are much more imbred than genetic morph. The difference with genetic morph is that they are all casual mutation and then there is a big work of out crossing to create a healthy viable population.

about the health of silkback: most of you are concerned with health problem with silk...but at the moment they don't seems to me different from another pogona, they aren't more vulnerable than the other. i would like to discuss this later in the husbandry section, can you keep your question for that section?

crazydude: yes silkback are mutant (if you want to call in this way all the animal which show a genetic mutation), like albinos geckoes or like leucistic ball python, or like salmon boa, or other mutation.

crazydude: let say you get 1 animal, if you cross with an unrelated animal only 50% of the genetic pool will be present in the babies, take one baby and breed with another unrelated animals, in the new born there will be 25%, if you cross again you will have 12% (with the other 88% being completely different). everytime you keep part of the genetic pool of the ancestors but you add new genes. if you consider a group of 6 (which is a small group) if for every baby you do the same hystory after 3 generation there will be a big gentic differnce. is not me who say that but reputable genetic researcher who study what is called "viable population". this is the work we have planned to do with dachiu

puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback. but as i said before this was done to test it!!!!! now, as a responsible keeper, i am outcrossing them (and dachiu is doing the same things) to create lines which are completely unrelated to their progenitors. i understand your concerning but you need to give me time....this year each of the leatherback is crossed with a different animal...they are already healthy animals and we are working to introduce in them the most variable genetic. if you ahve any suggestion to improve more their genetic pool i will be glad to know it.

"I'm sorry if the word mutant sounds mean, I guess I just had poor word choice. I was referring to the fact its a genetic mutation. I guess I just don't consider Albino geckos or Leuscistic ball pythons or salmon boas a mutation because it doesn't affect there daily life which in a way it affects silkbacks"

crazydude, first of all i think that genetic mutation like albino gecko will affect their lifestyle but it is really reduced to our eyes because they do not need a large amount of uvb.....but....what about with albino iguana or albino pogona??? as far as i know there is still lot of work to do to say that this situation does not affect their life style. if we consider ball python some of the mutation (starting from albino's) lead to animals with a poor growth rate, do you think these mutation doesn't affect their daily life????


"With less basking time do they ever not digest there food?
Have you ever had MBD or calcium problems with silkbacks?
If you try to breed them or if you have do you worry about their neck tearing?"

crazidude you are claiming things that they are not true... do i said they have less basking time??? as i said i will explain exactly everything inside the husbandry section but i can anticipate that you will not find so many differences comparing to the care of a normal bearded dragon.

ok here it is the section on husbandry, i hope it will be clear, but first i want to answer again to crazidude
"With line/inbreeding is there any underling problems that are not physical and are not noticed right away like more susceptibility to parasites or anything that you can not tell from just looking at them?"
such a thing should not be a problem with silkback but with every reptiles, i think you are triing to find the bad thing in any way you can. i suppose you haven't never buyied two animals from the same breeder unless he assured you that they were completely unrelated. of course i am only joking , that was to let you understand that, and i suppose lot of people, when i have bought my first pair of bearded dragon i wasn't aware of the imbreeding problem. i have bought a trio and then i bred them, and i have sold the babies . only later with the increase of knowledge i have understood what could be the problem and i went over to buy another trio to cross with the other, and that was my start as a breeder (15 years ago). but inbreeding problem, i have read somewhere, they will be visible anly after 3 or 4 generation (i need to find this paper, take it not for sure).


Husbandry
I normally keep the silkback like I keep my other dragon. Here is what I do. I normally keep my animals in a way they could go over the lamp to heat them up but I always give them a place where the temp is lower. On EACH cage there is a zoomed uvb 5.0. I DO HAVE LOT OF ATTENTION THAT THE CAGE ARE WELL VENTILATED. I keep babies in a box which is 50 x 30 the spot being in the first third, I keep the adult separate from female and they are all in cages 90x70x46 (cm not inches), the spot in the first third. In each cage there is one male OR 2 female. It is for that reason that I cannot keep too many animals and for that reason I shared the project with dachiu. When is breeding time I move the female that I want to breed n the cage of the male. Over the spot I do have 34 degree with a thermostat. On the other side there is a temp during the day that range from 27 to 30. in the night I switch off everything, the temp going slowly to 20-22.
Now…what is changed with silkback??
Nothing, the only thing I noticed is that they reach quicker the right body temp. so for the babies I sprayed them instead of one time x day, 2 times per day not because they need it but because I am scared they get dehidratated, and I want to prevent instead of treat it. The adult I do not spray them but I give them always available fresh water (which they don’t use that much…..but…just in case). It is important for them to have a place with lower temp….then…. they are animals and they exactly know where they should go….THEY TERMOREGULATE BY THEMSELVES. They eat like the other and the do shit like the other (lot of work to do). I feed them with roaches, cricket, mealworm, and of course vegetable.
This year I have tried to put them on the sun, and it is the same thing….when they reach the right temp they move to a place with no sun. I have tested them with “normal” pogona and the result was just that the silkback move first in search of food!!!!
About the skin they do not have any problem, it is not fragile…so I do not do anything special. I only noticed that they go on shedding more time.
As far as I know I think dachiu are doing the same thing I am doing.

“You have to remember that we are comparing it to our husbandry practices here in the U.S. For the most part, people try and keep hatchlings and juveniles at 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit. You stated that you keep them the same as your other bearded dragons, which is at 34 degrees Celsius on the basking spot. This converts over to 93.2 degrees Fahrenheit. That is substantially lower than what most keepers have their basking spots here. Our equivalent would be around 40-43 degrees Celsius. The adults are kept at closer to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, give or take a few degrees. (38 degrees Celsius). So, while there are not differences in your husbandry practices between a regular dragon and silkbacks, that would not be the case here in the U.S.”
Yes but as far as I now the temp you mentioned in usa are done to massimize growth rate, as a matter of fact in this way bearded dragon reach adult size in 6 months. Things like that are done to be able to have babies grow quickly to be sold as soon as you can. But from some research in Australia bearded dragon reach their sexual maturity in 1-2 year. This does seems to me natural!!!!!! And my animals need at least one year to be young adult and sometimes I do wait 2 year until I breed them….
Second point: you are making confusion with temp of the environment and body temp. there are lot of research on several species that they reach a body temp higher than the one of the ambient (for example vipera kaznakovi who live near Siberia and it can reach really high body temp, or Mediterranean tortoises that they are still active in October even if the temp is low, they just need a bit of sun to increase body temp…if you want I have thousand of example). The “lower” basking temp does not mean that they do not reach the right temp but they ay take more time. The high temp some usa breeder keep (I know some who don’t do that) is because in this way the animals reach the right body temp first and then they can give food more times (we talk about 4-6 times per day). BUT these breeder told me that they need to spray the animals several times per day to avoid overheating and dehidratation….YOU NEED TO SAY THE WHOLE STORY NOT PART OF IT

”I also wanted to address the UVB. Many keepers use either 10.0 fluorescents or MVB's, which give out a significantly higher amount of UVB. Would the increased UVB have a negative impact on the silkback's skin? For example, I have a Reptile UV Mega ray MVB and the reading on my uvb meter is about 148 at the point where my dragon is receiving the uvb rays. They do well with this”
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?? put me fact on it, not presuming it.

“ It is also important to know how far the silkbacks are from the uvb source. According to the manufacturer of the 5.0, they should be 10-12 inches, or 10-25 cms from the uvb source. The uvb they receive is minimal. Again, this is very different than what many keepers and breeders practice in the U.S.”
First of all my 5.0 lamp are 12 cm over the animals for 14 hour. Second of all there is a currently going research on 10.0 uvb lamb all over Europe (I have talked with some vet) because they are assuming that if the animals are kept too close to this kind of lamp they could create problem to the eyes of the animals starting from congiuntivitis and in the worse cases cancer (the research is still going i know some result as pers. comm). If you go on the zoomed site on the lamp section you will read that the 10.0 are builted for tall terrarium and they suggest a distance between the lamp and the animals of 45cm. so who is wrong???? don’t forget that in nature they can adjust by themselves, do we give the same opportunity to our captive animals?????

“question regarding the humidity. I had heard that electricity is very expensive in Italy and air conditioning is not very common. So, I was wondering if you have air conditioning where the silkbacks are kept? If not, do you live in a humid region? Most of us here have air conditioning, so even in places where it is very humid (like NC & AR), the dragons habitat is usually kept at a much lower humidity level. So, I was wondering what the humidity level is in the silckbacks enclosures.”
First of all I live in rome which is not that humid, second of all the cages are inside rooms which are completely isolated (and that was costing me lot of money). Inside my room I have 40% of humidity. When the weather is right I take them outside and every night I put them back. I do not have any air condition for them…. they are desertic animals.

”but I just wanted to point out that there are several differences between your recommended husbandry for silkbacks and regular bearded dragons”
This is your opinion, at the moment I keep normal and silkback in the same way…and at this moment my RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES

”how closely related the dragons were that created the silkback mutation. You have implied they were closely related, but I was wondering to what degree? Were they siblings? I am trying to get a grasp on this and also would really like to know how long ago the mutation occurred and how many generations have passed. Were the leather backs that originally created the silkbacks closely related? If so, is it possible this mutation is a result of inbreeding and not a co-dominant gene? Has it had time to be proven out as a co-dominant trait?”
i think I have already answered this question 3 times already…""puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback."" . but I can add more, silkback is not a mutation over another mutation. But it is the super form of a codominant gene. And this year I proved it out because I have bred my silkback male on a normal female (unrelated) and it gave me all the babies being leath. And this is the last confirmation you could have. I suppose you may need some info on genetic and I suggest you to read the chapter in the N.E.R.D. site. For your info I add some link that can be helpful

http://vmsherp.com/LCGenetics301.htm this is a section who explain easily the transmission of characters and the definition
http://www.geneticswizard.com/ this is a site where you can easily test any cross you want to do and it will give you the result in %

wendi I am sorry I am answering in this way but it seems to me that you are not doing constructive criticism but you are trying to find any fact that can help you to say silkback are not healty. if for any reason you need that (and I don’t understand why) please tell me and I will find a way to help you.

the first thing i will say is that the whole history was described to really important breeder and seeing the result they sayd there is no doubt is a codominant gene

now....
Two normal animal are bred and one was different (first generation). I took the first animal (the female) and crossed with one normal unrelated male. I produced the second generation. I grow up all the babies (11 babies), I have splitted in two group, yellow (4) and red (7). Now the story should be divided in 2 section
First section. The 2 of the yellow (2 were not ready) and 4 of the red line (1 was not ready) were bred each with a coloured animal (yellow leath to yellow, red leath to red) unrelated. I produced the third generation (two lines). I have kept most of the red produced and this year I crossed the one who was able to breed to new unrelated animals. This is the fourth generation
Second section: The two red remaining I bred them together with the aim to test and find out the super form. I hatched 5 silkback (first generation) and the leather. It is for that reason that I say there is a distance but it is still small, because they come over from a cross of the second generation. This year I tested the silk in two ways. I crossed two of the third generation (one of the yellow line and one of the red line) which they should be more separate and I get silkback again (first generation but with more distance). The male of the first generation was ready to breed and I crossed him with a normal female and the result was all leath which confirm the codominant gene. The other 3 were not ready this year so we will wait till next year and we will breed them with other unrelated animals.

Then last year we gave some animals to dachiu, to help us with this project, 1 silkback (first generation) and some leath of the third generation (some of the red line and some of the yellow line) and as far as I know the ones ready to breed are/will be crossed with other unrelated animals. They know exactly the genetic situation of the animals and they are working with me to enhance the genetic difference.

This is a big project with lot of work to do for both of us. It is for that reason that I take the whole thing in a passionate way and I don’t like that people, who don’t know how difficult it is, would argue on this. I think that if you tell this story to anyone who breed snake (starting from nerd, bob clark, vin russo just to name some of the reputable snake breeder or to ron tremper, gecko breeder, or anyone else) who is working with genetic mutation he will tell you that this is the way we should work. So onestly….i don’t know what to say more

alessandro
 
Old 06-26-2007, 06:29 AM   #3
KelliH
Thanks for posting again. I have been wondering if the scaleless bearded dragons do well in captivity? From what I read on Daichu's website, there was an indication that the Silkbacks are far more delicate and far more susceptible to having shedding problems, problems with their skin tearing, and also possibly problems with tolerating the high basking temperatures that Pogona require in captivity.

I am very interested in learning more about this morph, and would be grateful if you would address these issues.
Attached Images
 
 
Old 06-26-2007, 08:20 AM   #4
Dachiu
More detailed husbandry information...

Ill do my best to answer many of the questions that were posed to us - but I do not have answers to all of them.

We own one female Silkback that we imported from Italy in Oct. 2006.

Our adult animals are housed in melamine enclosures with 2 fluorescent bulbs (one is a 5.0) and a low watt basking bulb (15-50 watt depending on the season). Our cages have also been modified to allow for increased airflow and the humidity in our house runs usually around 50%. All lights come on in the morning and due to the low wattage basking bulbs being used, the cages warm up slowly - as does the room temperature. Anywhere between noon-4pm we usually shut off our heat lights. Since the ambient temperature in the room is higher and the fluorescent are fairly close (approx. 8 inches) to the animal - if they choose, they can remain on the basking area and maintain a higher body temp. Our adult dragons respond well to an average body temperatures of around 90-92 - with an occasional peek of 96 range. We choose to gradually warm our dragons to a peek temperature and then slowly allow their temperatures to drop back down to ambient - this works well for us. Using this method also allows for a slight increase of overall humidity in the cage - we do not bump the humidity in the cage by spraying. In general, the cage humidity is usually slightly lower than the room humidity.

This is very close to the same set up we have raised our silkback in. So when her husbandry is compared to the way many people tend to house their dragons - there are variations. Would we suggest using a high output UVB source? Nope. But we don’t recommend them anyway.

Bearded Dragons and Frilled Lizards
Quote:
“The average body temperature of bearded dragons in the wild is around 91 degrees. In captivity, these lizards appear to have a higher preferred temperature of around 96 degrees.”
Does allowing our dragons to bask at high temperatures for a long duration every day actually promote health? Is this natural? In the USA, prolonged, higher heat is usually used - causing drier conditions. So when we say that we offer “slightly increased humidity” it is in comparison to popular husbandry practices.

Bearded dragons do not need a 110 basking temperature to properly digest their food. Our dragons digest their food and poo just fine at lower temperatures. Could you keep a Silkback at a higher temperature and avoid problems? I don’t know. There was a study done on heat transfer which compared a scaleless gopher snake to a normally scaled gopher snake and not much of a difference was noted between the 2. http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/4.pdf

“Optimal” care/husbandry for bearded dragons (as a whole) is based upon opinion. Optimal care varies with the individual dragons needs/preferences and it is our job to provide what in our opinion is optimal care. We feel we have done this across the board with all of our dragons - those with and the one without scales…

As for the lack of scales making her too fragile to act like a normal beardie without causing herself injury - No. She is not falling apart. Yes, her skin is soft and smooth and not covered in scales, therefore more fragile than that of a scaled animal. She acts like any other bearded dragon and has not accidentally caused a skin tear yet. She still watches everything going on in the room, chases her crickets and roaches, splashes around and blows up like a bubble in water to float.

We have not bred her and therefore cannot comment on how the skin has held up through a breeding season. But she was caged with another animal when younger - and received a bite on her tail. The bite was a good one and broke her skin - but she healed just fine and the bite mark is barely noticeable. There were no infections involved. Based on this incident, one would assume that physical breeding could cause harm - especially if the male is aggressive. ((There are other ways of fertilizing a female that offer no direct contact - this has been proven by many. Plus, a Silk does not need to be bred to create another Silk.))

Her skin, when shedding is thinner than a normal dragons shed and does not seem to have the elasticity of scaled shed. Close attention must be given to the skin around the digits and tail to prevent rolling or constriction like Seamus said… During her shedding process, we will occasionally dampen a paper towel and leave it in her cage.
Another concern of ours was the pads of her hands and feet. She has not formed, and probably cannot form, any calluses in this area and therefore pressure sores were a concern. We have seen none as of yet.

The physiological aspect of scales concerning water retention was also addressed in the gopher snake study. ((Im sorry, but the only information I have found in reference to scalelessness is in snakes.)) http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/4.pdf
Our silkback is not dehydrated nor does she drink much when offered water. When she is soaked in water for a bath, she does not “prune up” like our hands do.

Differentiation of the epidermis during scale formation in embryos of lizard
( http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...1&blobtype=pdf ) is another article that is loaded with information on scales and their formation.

It seems to me that Ruby’s skin does not complete the folding process… nor I suppose, does the keratinization process finish - Whatever it is exactly that happened, it has not effected anything else that we have noticed. She is now 17 inches, has nails and teeth and her skin is not overly sensitive to touch when handling. She is a happy, outwardly healthy bearded dragon - minus scales.

We are not producing Silkback dragons and are at close to 2 years away from even being able to do so. We haven’t even gone through a whole cycle with our female silk. We have quite some time between now and then to continue with our observations.

Hope this addresses some of the concerns.
Rob & Vickie
 
Old 06-26-2007, 08:35 AM   #5
KelliH
Vickie-

Thank you so much for posting. It is good to know all of that information about the silkbacks. I only questioned the longterm health of these guys in captivity because of what I read on your website, which, granted, I may have misinterpreted.

It is certainly quite an interesting animal, and very beautiful (please do not flame me, this is just my personal opinion).
 
Old 06-26-2007, 08:51 AM   #6
Dachiu
I completely understand the confusion/concern. What was posted on our site was a quick introduction and probably could have been worded better.

Our general care and Alessandro's general care do differ slightly, but I believe we utilize the same concepts.
 
Old 06-26-2007, 11:09 AM   #7
alessandro
thank you vickie.
i am happy you add your explanation because all the thing you have said are all important things on silkback. due to the language distance i was obliged to work on for two days to say the same thing you have written.

i supose it was my mistake by not understanding some point you cleared out.
hope it will help further more
alessandro
 
Old 06-26-2007, 07:37 PM   #8
Denisebme
Question copied from the other thread
Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to discuss the genetics Alessandro.
My concern is pretty simple. The primary physical trait in these beardies that appears to be affected is how their bodies process Keratin, which is why they lack the typical scales seem in a beardie. They appear to be missing the upper two levels of the epidermis, the middle layer where scale development occurs and the upper layer which is normally made up of the heavy scales and spikes we are used to seeing.
I have a couple of related questions;
First, if you've had any skin breaks, have you noticed if the healing time is comparable to that of a "normal" bearded dragon?
Second, is the development of any other normal characteristic affected? In other words, are the nails and joints normal or are they more brittle? Are the growth patterns normal?
Third, and this may have already been answered, I've been gone a few days, are you tracking for any other issues that may arise? Unlike color specific breeding, this is a new genetic mutation and it may take a bit of time to see if any other issues come up from their bodies seeming inability to correctly process keratin.
Thanks.
 
Old 06-27-2007, 11:59 AM   #9
Drache613
Hello

Hello,

Thank you for posting Vickie, we are all just concerned with what was portrayed originally.

Tracie
 
Old 06-27-2007, 05:18 PM   #10
puppytoes72
thank you for finally coming forward to answer the questions.
 

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