Adenovirus Questions

Wendy,
Thank you for answering in such detail...

But my post was directed towards Whiskersmom - suggesting she ask you about the health and asking her to define what she would consider 100% correct husbandry.
I should have been a bit more clear in my post... Im sorry.

Vickie

Hey Vickie-

I see what you are saying. But I guess it doesn't hurt for others to see how Clyde was housed. Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it.

Wendy

What I think as great husbandry is what Wendy just recounted regarding Clyde's life. Did he always seem healthy to you, Wendy?
What I'm trying to find out is if a person who knows just the basics of bearded dragon husbandry buys an Adeno infected dragon, will that dragon thrive as well as a non infected dragon?
I've read many newcomers accounts of how they care for their dragons and some of these accounts are concerning dragons that are anywhere from five to nine years old. Alot of these people tell of husbandry that leaves alot to be desired but still, these dragons seem healthy. If these same people acquire an infected dragon, will that baby become ill easier and much quicker then a non infected one?
I've read that Adeno positive carriers can lead a long and healthy life and that seems to be what Sunshine keeps referring back to; his dragons are healthy, so I wanted to know if when a dragon is sold to someone who doesn't have the benefit of the internet and isn't as knowledgeable, do breeders still feel it's ok to sell an Adeno infected baby without full disclosure?

do breeders still feel it's ok to sell an Adeno infected baby without full disclosure? Whiskersmom, I think that is something that is misunderstood on the thread on BOI. You started it about selling infected dragons and disclosure, with asking some questions about the parents of your dragon, as it appears you were getting the routine smoke blowing run around from Sunshine Dragon, or at least from the owner Bruce.

Others turn it into a debating issue of what is known and what is not know about adeno and that is where so many people read it as them supporting him selling infected dragons, I am not so sure any supported that or what you asked in the thread, That happens often on the BOI, we call it hijacking a thread or as you saw so many other non relevant things get brought into it,

I know I got massive amounts of pm's and email over people thinking some breeders were stating they agreed with this so people assumed they also had infected dragons also, I do not think that was the case. I have reread that whole mess, but each time when someone ask another breeder outright, they did not agree with selling them without informing the public. Go back and read each one carefully, let me know if I missed it

Sorry, I can not answer your other questions, I do not think it is poor husbandry that dictates if a positive animal is going to get sick and die OR causes adenovirus. Poor husbandry can cause any animals to get sick and die depending on what is missing in their care, whether they have adeno or not. I think that its the virus that causes so many other issues in the dragons, like hard to treat coccidia and other opportunistic bacteria and virus to show up and get a hold of the animal, not the other way around. I have seen to many people with remarkably good husbandry lose their adeno positive adults and babies, blaming it on husbandry like what was done to Wendy, is just a low life taking punches... again to blow more smoke. Like you said, people with horrible husbandy have dragons that live to ripe old ages somethings........ normal non inbreed bearded dragons are very hearty reptiles and often HARD to kill off.

[quote=
I know I got massive amounts of pm's and email over people thinking some breeders were stating they agreed with this so people assumed they also had infected dragons also, I do not think that was the case. I have reread that whole mess, but each time when someone ask another breeder outright, they did not agree with selling them without informing the public. Go back and read each one carefully, let me know if I missed it.[/QUOTE]

CheriS, it is unfortunate that such a massive amount of people contacted you to get the lowdown on breeders that had questions or differing opinions about this virus. I hope that you advised them to directly contact the breeder(s) in question rather than relying on third-party opinion. Thank you for reading back over the thread and realizing that not everyone who questions this virus is saying that it is okay to sell adeno-positive babies without full disclosure of the fact. It is unfair to assume that these people are knowingly selling adeno-positive animals and trying to hide the fact.

Jamie

CheriS, it is unfortunate that such a massive amount of people contacted you to get the lowdown on breeders that had questions or differing opinions about this virus. I hope that you advised them to directly contact the breeder(s) in question rather than relying on third-party opinion.

Some people just don't know if they can trust some breeders' word. Especially after Sunshine was pretty much caught with their pants down and STILL won't admit to what was done or agree to stop distributing adeno suspected or known infected dragons. In fact, didn't he even say that he wouldn't be testing them any longer as he doesn't trust the findings???
I think people are a little afraid that they won't get the truth and are going to someone who has proven herself to be on the side of bearded dragons........

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

Some people just don't know if they can trust some breeders' word. Especially after Sunshine was pretty much caught with their pants down and STILL won't admit to what was done or agree to stop distributing adeno suspected or known infected dragons. In fact, didn't he even say that he wouldn't be testing them any longer as he doesn't trust the findings???
I think people are a little afraid that they won't get the truth and are going to someone who has proven herself to be on the side of bearded dragons........

Ok - BUT - CheriS could not possibly know what goes on in the facilities of other breeders. And according to her, massive amounts of people were asking her about breeders who were posting on the thread. (At least the breeders that did not blindly follow the mob.) How could she even think that she could speak for all of the breeders, myself included? That is why she needed to direct people to contact each breeder individually that was being questioned.

And by the way, I don't think the opinion of CheriS was required for people to be able to make an informed decision about the practices of Sunshine Dragons. I have not seen any other breeders who posted on that thread acting in any incriminating way that would justify the distrust of the general public in the way that Sunshine did. Sure, there are breeders out there that are less than forthcoming. Just like in every other business. But to lump all breeders together as dishonest is unfair. And to depend on one person with an obvious agenda to prove that adeno is a black-plague killer is unfair too!

Jamie

Ok, please enlighten us....what would that agenda be???
And NO ONE said that ALL breeders were dishonest. What is your problem? Are you mad because she is trying to halt the progression of this disease or that she's shedding light on some unscrupulous breeders? I never once read where she says she can speak for all the breeders but sometimes you can put two and two together and figure out which ones are not trust worthy.
I really don't understand your anger, do you honestly think that if a breeder is dirty enough to sell dragons that even might have Adeno without first disclosing it, do you really think they're going to be honest enough to tell you about it once you've asked? I've asked Bruce several times and he won't tell me......and sorry, I'm not naive enough to think he's the only one like that out there.
The way I look at it is, if you're honest and sell healthy dragons, or even dragons that are positive for Adeno but tell the buyer first, then you really don't have anything to worry about.

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

Ok, please enlighten us....what would that agenda be???
And NO ONE said that ALL breeders were dishonest. What is your problem? Are you mad because she is trying to halt the progression of this disease or that she's shedding light on some unscrupulous breeders? I never once read where she says she can speak for all the breeders but sometimes you can put two and two together and figure out which ones are not trust worthy.
I really don't understand your anger, do you honestly think that if a breeder is dirty enough to sell dragons that even might have Adeno without first disclosing it, do you really think they're going to be honest enough to tell you about it once you've asked? I've asked Bruce several times and he won't tell me......and sorry, I'm not naive enough to think he's the only one like that out there.
The way I look at it is, if you're honest and sell healthy dragons, or even dragons that are positive for Adeno but tell the buyer first, then you really don't have anything to worry about.

I am not mad at anyone. I could ask the same thing of you - "What is your problem?". But I won't. You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else is here. And yes, that includes CheriS. My posts have nothing to do with you, and I don't want you to them as a personal attack. I just want to make sure that if anyone has a question about anyone here that they go directly to that person rather than through a third party, who IMO, is not an expert on the virus and all that it encompasses. And have I not said a millions times that I do not agree with Sunshine selling adenovirus positive dragons without full disclosure of the fact? Let's not turn this into me supporting them, because I don't. And as far as my anger problem...uhhh....what are you talking about? I'm opinionated, not angry!

Jamie

Is there anyway I can find out if my dragons have the virus? My local vet offices do not have electron microscopes.