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Old 06-09-2004, 10:49 PM   #1
taphillip
Angry venomous dealers out of control

not sure if I am supposed to post this here or not, so if not I apologize.

I am the Curator of Reptiles at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens in Rapid City South Dakota and I wanted to share the phone call I recieved today.

I got a call from a guy in E. South Dakota. today, who just ordered an E. A. Green Mamba, A Death Adder and 2 albino Monocled Cobras. His questions to me was:
"How dangerous are the bites by these snakes?
Which one is worse?
How do I get them in there cage?
If he were to be bitten, would I care if he used our antivenom?"

He was told by the dealer that if bitten by any of the three, they would knock him unconcious and he would be sick for a couple days, but not to worry about it!

Right after answering a couple of the questions above, I started to ask where he bought them, just as he started to respond his cell phone started to cut out..... he said he would call me back. I think he didn't really like a good a_s chewing so he never called back....

I wish I knew the dealers name....does anyone know who has been selling death adders recently?

Also, I asked him if he had any venomous snake experience and his response was " a couple rattlesnakes "

I can't believe the dealers are that desperate for money to be willing to kill one of there customers!

There needs to be some morality in that buisness! In order to make a couple hundred bucks at most!!!

Outragious!!

If anyone knows of a dealer that has been selling Death Adders, I would love to know who they were, so I can black list them from any future purchases from our zoo as well as pass this story on to all the zoo Curators that I deal with. Which just so happens to be alot!

I posted this here, thinking that most dealers probably visit here occasionally to see if there name is being discussed. So I apologize if this is the wrong place for this.

Terry
 
Old 06-10-2004, 12:19 AM   #2
snakegetters
The unfortunate truth is that if somebody talks a good game to a dealer and says they are a legitimate buyer with experience, they can get snakes. No dealer has the resources to investigate anyone's background more thoroughly than this. I am personally just short of anal retentive about whom I will give, sell or trade snakes to, but I'm not a dealer and I can afford to be.

Keep in mind that the person may not have been telling the truth about one or more aspects of his story, eg, what the dealer said about the bite. But if he was telling the truth, if there is some dealer out there who will tell customers on the phone that the bite is anything less than fatal on these animals, that's a big problem in our community.

The inventory you mentioned doesn't sound familiar right off the bat, but there are a lot of venomous dealers and importers and brokers out there so you'd really have to try getting hold of the guy to find out. No caller ID on him?
 
Old 06-10-2004, 12:31 AM   #3
taphillip
Hopefully the dealers have enough experience/knowledge on the subject to be able to pick up on the person who knows nothing about them. In a 2 minute conversation most knowledgable people can pick up on the experience level on the other end of the phone/computer. If not then they shouldn't be dealing the snakes to begin with.
I know in my own mind that this individual was tremendously inexperienced....it was apparent just because of the questions that he was asking. If you have to ask that question then No you shouldn't own those kinds of snakes!
You are right about one thing Tanith, we have a serious problem in this community and it needs to stop. I had a guy 4-5 months ago tell a dealer that he was a good friend and student of mine ( which he was not ) and convinced the dealer to sell an angusticeps and a Bitis arietans to him. Being that I met him once and he wanted advice on how to clear up a RI on a Burmese Python, then proceed to tell me that he just bought two Kaouthia.....if you don't know how to avoid an RI then you need not own cobras. Fortunately the dealer valued my buisness more than the lone individual and cancelled the shipment.
So yes! There is a major problem in this community.... No question or other explanation!
 
Old 06-10-2004, 08:19 AM   #4
bud mierkey
Unhappy It will just get worse!

This mess will just get worse before it gets better.
As was stated its impossible to check out sombody if they can talk a good talk over the phone BUT you cannot get a gun that way can you?

So this is where the fix must be installed.

every time somebody gets snakes and gets into trouble the dealers simply cry WE CHEKED HIM OUT HE WAS LEGIT!

Then you find out in the real world money talks with these guys and they care not if you or someone else dies after they get their cash.

Put a little god bless there or what ever and its all cool.

Here is a idea its radical but its better than this kinda he said
we checked type blame pushing.


Every time sombody wants to buy a snake he or she must file for a buyers permit !

This will state they are LEGIT 100%.

We have to come up with some thing soon or its too late .

any ideas ?

I love talking to a new guy and they have gaboons ad cobras but cannot even pronounce their names.
no experiance at all but they consider themselves equal to.
real trained pros.
cause they can buy a black or pan makes them qualified.






 
Old 06-10-2004, 08:55 AM   #5
Seamus Haley
Whatever happened to the idea of consumer responsibility?

There was a time in this country when you could buy just about anything you wanted, even things which could cause you physical harm or death if misused and the responsibility for use was squarely where it belonged... On the shoulders of the end consumer. I'm sick of having to leap through hoops and red tape in order to obtain a product (or animal) that'll have warning labels and disclaimers filling an instruction manual that weighs more than the product. If someone wants to be a moron and hurt themselves, I really am in favor of letting them do so. Their choice, their responsibility to accept the consequences. Unfortunately life will never be that way again.

Now... instances of misrepresentation of potential danger are clearly a different situation but can anyone honestly say that they know a dealer who would state that mambas, cobras and death adders weren't capable of lethal envenomations? Really? I don't and frankly can't concieve of such an individual existing. Possibility I suppose but doubtful. I'd likely suspect a buyer of lying to multiple people than a dealer.

The LAST thing we need are consumer regulations above and beyond what we have. Time and time again regulation of potentially dangerous items/substances has proven to be less than ideally effective in actually preventing those few problems which occur, consumer education is key. Restrictions past a certain point do nothing but punish those responsible enough to obey them.

Tanith, I know you harbor some anti-pet trade views and you have never made a secret of it. You're not hardline anti-captive ownership but you certainly can't claim to be unbiased on this issue and I think a few of your comments were misleading when phrased as generalities as they were... I won't disagree with the exact statements but your words SEEMED to insinuate that dealers weren't careful enough about who they sent animals to, which I don't feel is entirely accurate or fair. I might have read more into it than you intended though.

Bud... Bud, Bud, Bud... You're... Well, you're Bud Mierky. You and what passes for your "thoughts" are jokes, always have been always will be. You're not credible, period.

Terry, given that the majority of dealers working with venomous animals are themselves educated and experienced individuals, I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer lied to them in order to obtain the animals, then lied to you in order to cover it. Ego maybe? Who knows... I don't believe it's a common situation or an epidemic of hot animals being sold to naive consumers though.
 
Old 06-10-2004, 11:20 AM   #6
Ravnos
I've seen it first hand at local venomous expos. Baby gaboon vipers for $35, baby puff adders for $25 and people who barely have any business owning a corn snake, muchless something potentially deadly, walking out of the building with them without so much as a word from the vendor except 'Thanks for your money!'.

I happened to mention to one vendor once that I did a little snake rehab, he showed me a sick Naja nigricollis and despite my insistance that I had no experience with elapids he assured me I would be fine and could rehab it and he'd sell it to me real cheap. Needless to say I didn't go home with it, but still - if I had been ignorant and arrogant, I may have. And could have ended up blind or dead for my stupidity.

Are there vendors who mislead people (or just leave out certain truths) to make a buck? There certainly are. Is it buyer beware? It damnwell sure is. Many stores sell things that could be potentially harmful if put in the hands of someone dumb - they don't spend all their time screening customers and talking things over with them to make sure they're adequately prepared to purchase such a thing.

Really though, in the end, if the venomous community doesn't police itself, someone else will - and the result most likely won't be to any of our liking. I enjoy the fact that I have the right to purchase a mamba, if I should want one and would prefer that all our rights are not taken away by a few greedy people and a few ignorant people unwittingly working as a team. Thankfully it is not even close to the majority, but it is a concern all venomous dealers should think about.

Adam Dawson
 
Old 06-10-2004, 03:02 PM   #7
Mustangrde1
It is a shame that in this world we have “Business is Business and Money is Money" as a saying.

That said it is true in all business's that there are bad and good in them all. Not just the reptile trade but all business. Hence the BBB and here the BOI. To help weed out the good from the bad.

Many dangerous things have warning labels from prescription narcotics to alcohol and tobacco. Even on CD's and DVD's we have warning labels. It is the responsibility of the consumer to understand and use good judgment on their part when purchasing items.

Yes there are certainly Bad Guys in the reptile world. There are also many very good ones. Some States have laws on venomous and who may keep them, others have no laws.

Is it the responsibility of the vendor to be certain every person who buys and animal is skilled or knowledgeable enough to own it?

If you answer yes then how are they to be judged suitable for keeping an animal?
Each person has different standards of what they may feel is acceptable husbandry. So is this a way to judge persons abilities? Certainly not.

Can a vendor ask simple question to try and determine the person’s safety factor for owning a species? Certainly.
However given a week of studying a species I am most certain many could pass off as fairly knowledgeable enough to own one to someone else.

It truly comes down to being honest with yourself and knowing what you are ready for. If you even have to ask yourself if you’re ready then YOU ARE NOT.

Who dictates whom may buy large monitors and how should they be gauged?
Who dictates whom may buy large constrictors and how may they be gauged?
Who dictates whom may buy venomous reptiles and how may they be gauged?

Some States have laws governing those questions. Many however do not so who really it to say you may or may not own it accept the person who wants it.

If the dealer is of high morals and character he/ she will certainly not sell any of these to minors or persons he/she feels does not have the mentality or skills to handle these creatures. Provided again the person is honest first with themselves and second to the dealer.

An unscrupulous vendor however will sell to these people without a second thought in doing so.
 
Old 06-10-2004, 04:24 PM   #8
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Tanith, I know you harbor some anti-pet trade views and you have never made a secret of it. You're not hardline anti-captive ownership but you certainly can't claim to be unbiased on this issue and I think a few of your comments were misleading when phrased as generalities as they were...
I do not believe that it is a good idea to sell animals with highly specialized environmental and dietary requirements to people who have no clue how to care for them....eg, $5 iguanas that kids take home and feed lettuce and fruit cocktail. Or venomous snakes to people who are not skilled in their handling and husbandry. Currently the pet trade does a lot of that, and yes, I have a problem with it.

There are a lot of abuses in the pet trade, not because having animals for sale is intrinsically bad, but because most people who buy reptiles as pets are not qualified to take care of them - and they don't even care enough to make the small effort to become qualified. I don't think that abolishing the pet trade is the solution however. I wish I could abolish stupid people who mistreat animals, but that isn't likely to happen.


Quote:
I won't disagree with the exact statements but your words SEEMED to insinuate that dealers weren't careful enough about who they sent animals to, which I don't feel is entirely accurate or fair. I might have read more into it than you intended though.
What I am saying is that dealers cannot visit the snake rooms of everybody they sell to. They cannot hire a private detective to follow every customer around and make sure they aren't lying about having experience with venomous snakes. That is not a realistic requirement. No one can do business that way. So the truth of the matter is, whether anyone likes it or not, anyone who talks a reasonably good game and lives in a legal state can buy venomous snakes from a dealer.

Bad things sometimes happen because of this. Since I'm a private citizen and not a dealer, I can be as picky as I wanna be about who gets my snakes.


Quote:
Terry, given that the majority of dealers working with venomous animals are themselves educated and experienced individuals, I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer lied to them in order to obtain the animals, then lied to you in order to cover it. Ego maybe? Who knows...
Somebody lied, but it could have been the dealer. I have run into some of the real bottom of the barrel venomous dealers, small timers doing shows and brokering hots that they buy from importers. I have seen people selling hots who could not even spell their common names and did not know the Latin names. They knew nothing about the animals and nothing about their venom. So yes, I could believe this scenario from either end.


Quote:
I don't believe it's a common situation or an epidemic of hot animals being sold to naive consumers though.
Is it an epidemic? No. Does it happen? Yes.
 
Old 06-10-2004, 04:37 PM   #9
Seamus Haley
Tanith, thank you kindly for the clarification I can agree with much more of what you said in the second post than the impressions I got from the wording in the first. What someone reads isn't always what was intended to be written as I'm sure you well underdtand.

I think Scott said it best-

Quote:
That said it is true in all business's that there are bad and good in them all. Not just the reptile trade but all business. Hence the BBB and here the BOI. To help weed out the good from the bad.
There is always going to be a certain unpreventable minority of shady individuals who have poor practices, all we can do is hit them in the wallet and try to identify new ones as they arise.
 
Old 06-10-2004, 06:37 PM   #10
bud mierkey
Thumbs down And as always seamus shows anus!

Seamus.... Seamus. Seamus.

Your so called statement-

"Bud... Bud, Bud, Bud... You're... Well, you're Bud Mierky. You and what passes for your "thoughts" are jokes, always have been always will be. You're not credible, period."

And as always you have shown your high degree intelligence.
How old are you 100?
Things have changed open open your eyes.
This is a world where common sense and responsibility
are but a old tale of the past as you stated.

oh,
spell my name right next time.
Take your credibility and stuff it!
I lose no sleep over your opinon bah
I get the job done end of story.
how about you
good day




 
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