steve osborne of Professional(?) Breeders

Well now you have made your intentions clear. You just want to bash Osbourne. You are 100% wrong about everything else you posted ball python expert. I have seen adult balls go up to 2 years without eating! A 700 gram female can ovulate! A female does not need to be introduced to male to ovulate! Etc, etc, etc. Read a book or watch a video before you shoot off your mouth. I am not the world's top ball python expert, but the fact that I have 200 compared to your 4, I do have more experience. Evan Stahl

Exactly what is it that you are trying to say Fred? Industries can't suck. They are what they are. People can suck. Some do and some don't just like in any other industry. What's wrong with fancy pricelists and brokered animals? It would be a much smaller industry without those two things but neither apply to this thread. Evan Stahl

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Sorry, but nothing in this message was pertinent to this thread. &nbsp;If you have something to say about one of the people posting messages here, please start your own thread about him/her.

Thanks,

WebSlave
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Greetings,

Jürgen Chlebowy
===================
ReptileTopSites.com

Just me running my mouth some more...

I'm not bashing steve. Just telling of my experiences with him...FACTUALLY!

Written...Written...Written...Written...Written...
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO A PERSONS WORD?
I TRY BY EVERY MEANS POSSIBLE TO HOLD UP TO MINE!
I GUESS I HOLD OTHERS TO TOO HIGH OF A STANDARD!?

Steve implied there was an indefinet guarantee on my recieving a snake that would at least eat. spam_Nothing in writing of course.

Don't forget, I contacted him WELL before the 3 year mark we are at now.

I don't give a s..t how many snakes you have <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
Evan, looks like you have a few problems of your own.
It isn't in the #'s anyway.
I didn't state what I said as fact when I said "I doubt the snake is ovulating at @700 grams and not being brumated, never introduced to a male either." spam_I said I DOUBT IT!

THe snake is a poor quality speciman. PERIOD.
"JUNK SOLD TO ME BY PROFESSIONAL (?) BREEDERS!




I would replace the snakes if it were me in steve's shoes.
It is just good customer relations.
If some one buys a snake from me they will receive a snake that will eat and prosper or I'll refund the money or send them another snake. spam_I don't care if it is a $10 dollar snake or a $1000 snake. spam_No skin off my back to help out a customer. spam_I'm not in it for the money like some.
So...

to respond to AztecFred:

The "industry" side of it does suck!!! A big 'ol piece of donkey meat!
Hobbiest are fine <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
I guess that is who I'll deal with from now on!
Too bad my $2500 went in to fueling the "machine".


If I offended anyone in this post...GOOD!
I just now know who has proper morals...and who doesn't!

AND I NEVER CLAIMED I WAS AN EXPERT <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
BUT I'M NOT A MORON EITHER!
I BOW TO THEE...AND YOUR 200 SNAKES.

The snake is surviving, but it is not thriving. Why spend money on a captive born animal if it is not thriving? Who would choose to do that? Doesn't the seller have some obligation to insure that the supposedly "genetically superior", captive born animals he/she sells are going to do better than just "survive"? Are customers supposed to be buying with the understanding that their investment is actually gambling? If so then the terms should include a statement that says &nbsp;"Not all snakes that I sell do well and if the one you just purchased doesn't then it's your problem not mine.". &nbsp;Might as well go buy a wild-caught from an importer since most of us can get them to at least "survive". Or if you want to have hets &nbsp;then buy them from the cheapest seller you can find if you have to gamble on them "surviving" anyway. Hell, with force feeding I can make any snake "survive". But that is not what he paid for is it? Would any quality breeder want to use this animal in their breeding program even if you could do so? Steve has certainly protected himself with his terms of sale but a quality seller would be able to see that this is a gray area where additional support would be appropriate. This is just my 1.5 cents of opinion.

Quote by Geoff Stricker:

"Steve implied there was an indefinet guarantee on my recieving a snake that would at least eat. &nbsp;Nothing in writing of course."

&nbsp;

Some additional information to ponder reference the above quote:


&nbsp;The hetero female Ball Python in question was sold to Geoff as a 1999 hatchling in 1999. &nbsp;Our hatchling heterozygous albino Ball Pythons have had at least 5 individual feedings prior to shipping. The average weight of a hatchling Ball Python with 5 feedings is approximately 80 grams. &nbsp;I do guarantee that all of the Ball Pythons will feed for the receiving individual. &nbsp; Geoff's 3 year old hetero female that he is requesting an extension of or an indefinite guarantee on feeding performance now weighs 700 grams. The female does feed. &nbsp;This female is not in "survival status" . &nbsp;She simply is not growing according to the expectations of Geoff, and these growth rate expectations were not revealed to me during any time at the point of purchase in 1999 by Geoff. &nbsp;

&nbsp;Geoff knows all of this, but he is inferring that since I am a "big breeder", that I should satisfy his self-made guarantee extension. &nbsp;As a matter of principal I do not reward what I consider bad behavior (not in my workplace, kids at home, or my commercial breeding business). &nbsp;In my opinion, Geoff is displaying bad behavior and just like the individuals on the selling side that are here on the BOI under the category of "buyer beware" , Geoff Stricker is a "Seller Beware" candidate.

This is a rare occurance from what I have experienced from the customers we have had.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

Everyone please make note of the rule about putting your FULL NAME in EVERY message posted in a thread.

Dear Evan Stahl,

Answering your question you posted above:"Whats wrong with fancy price lists and brokered animals?"

Well Evan......sometimes everything that seems glossy and clean is actually dirty and quite insincere.
Mistakes......snakes that die in shipment.....snakes that refuse to eat...these things could happen to anyone, myself, you , anyone...


But, in this BUSINESS, IMAGE is everything
Colorfull fliers, eye popping websites, beautifull booths at shows...all IMAGE.
Not necessarily SUBSTANCE.
You know what substance is Evan dont you?

Substance is an inherent quality in any given person that they will TRY to do whatever is right in any given situation.
Sometimes it is not that easy to do this, not easy to keep everybody happy. But you have to try....

Brokered animals?
I could write VOLUMES on this one.
But, suffice to say that there are only a handfull of brokers I would EVER buy anything from nationwide.
That leaves about 200 I wouldnt buy a can of black flag mite spray from, let alone an animal.
That means that they will sell there WARES to someone else,
usually without keeping it for very long, usually without knowing to much of thesnakes history or habits or even if it feeds. &nbsp;Go figure..
Whats wrong with brokered snakes?
The people brokering them, thats what.

Sometimes brokering is sheatherd and hidden in facy pricelists and pretty websites.
But it is still the same thing.

Want to know the BEST purchaseing experience I have witnessed this year?

A friend of mine bought a Captive bred, Captive born, yellowhead Retic from Notah Howe. Notah has no booth at the shows, no fancy website, and no ads in the magazines or glossy flyers to promote his "product"
thats because it isnt his PRODUCT but his passion and his hobby. The snake arrived healthy, and looked just like the pics, and it has grown and gotten more beautiful day by day.
Notah was always there to answer questions and give advice.

In short:

A HOBBYIST that breeds the snakes, not for some big monetary gain or to offset his huge advertisemtn costs, but JUST BECAUSE HE IS ENAMOURED WITH THE SNAKE ITSELF.

Quality serpents. Small, wellmanaged collections.
Excellent before and after the sale treatment of the customer.

*THIS* is the standard we all should be shooting for Evan, in my opinion..

Sure would be less of "Us" around if that was true eh?
And frankly, it would be a better hobby
*These are just my opinions, you are entitled to your own*

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Sincerely,

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fred Albury
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (Aztec Reptiles)

Fred,

&nbsp;You seem angry.....


&nbsp; I am not aware of individuals/businesses that are in a primarily brokering position that have "Colorfull fliers, eye popping websites, beautifull booths at shows...all IMAGE.
Not necessarily SUBSTANCE. "

&nbsp;In my experience the only individuals/businesses that are in the financial position to pay for the costs of the type of advertising you mentioned are producing the vast majority of what they offer for sale themselves. &nbsp;The ability to produce stock well and advertise well are usually joined at the hip.

&nbsp;Who is operating in the category you describe?

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS