steve osborne of Professional(?) Breeders

i would have to agree that steve has fufilled his obligation of his guarantee on this purchase--i have sold snakes that fed for me like clock work, the customer could not get them to feed--they send them back at my expense, and sure enough--they feed again. Sometimes setup can be the key, and yes sometimes, some balls can be finicky---i would say at 700 grams it is not wasting away. I know a guy who bought an adult female ball python albino for $12,000 like 6 years ago--that animal has never fed regularly, and i do not beleive that she has produced an egg yet for him. As for freds comments, i do sometimes agree with his comments on brokers, and other times i do not. You seem to have a bit of a vendetta against brokers. I have purchased many many reptiles from many many small time breeders, and there have been problems a few times. Sometimes a small time breeder can be the worst person to buy from. They may have the animals, but not have the financial backing it takes to make a problem right when one arises. Some do and can. But some cant and wont. I purchased 2 albino boas a few years ago from a private breeder--one was fine-one was partially paralized--i sent the snake back immediately and i never recovered my $1300 to this day. Another time i purchased 6 baby "feeding" chondros from a small breeder--when 5 out of 6 would not feed and failed to thrive, i simply got oh i will try to make it up to you next year-never did. Another small breeder story--bout a batch of cornsnakes from a small breeder--had them on a lidless rack system about 2 years ago--every baby snake i had on that rack died along with the sick corns, no restittuion--only the restitution i made on the few i sold---oh another pops to mind--bought about 100 baby leopard geckos from a small breeder--all died-well about half--i froze the other half shortly after to prevent suffering and contagion.  Here is another one for you--bought 40 veiled chameleons from a breeder in california-they came in emmaciated and skinny--all but 5 died--swore up and down that he would make it right, never did.  There have been quite few others that i cant remember exact facts, and i bet for every story i have about being shafted by a small breeder-i have a great one to go along with it and then some.  But to be quite honest--i have a much easier time dealing with a larger dealer when it comes to a guarantee, than i do dealing with a small "backyard" breeder. Now i am in no way shape or form down grading small breeders--i buy from a ton of them--too many to list--that i buy from every year, and the list gets bigger every year. It is a mutually beneficial relationship--they want to sell all there animals at once to one person, who they know is going to pay, rather than run around to shows and piece them out here and there.  It is easier for them, and lets them enjoy doing what they  like to do--keep and breed reptiles. Some of my best friends in the business are small breeders who just keep a small number of animals--they give me good deals on there offspring, and i buy all of it, at any time, even when i do not need it. I also sometimes offer them first the one rare ratnsake they need or a new bloodline for there veiled chameleons or whatever. It is a two way street, and without "brokers" in the business, many small breeder would diminish.  All brokers are not bad--i do agree, many have to check into there business practices a little, some are down right crooks-but there are also some great names that have the financial ability and the means to take care of both there customers, and the people they buy from.  I have nice looking booths at shows--shiny flyers with full page ads in reptiles magazine. All my employees wear ben siegel reptiles t shirts at shows. I try to appear very proffesional--has nothing to do with trying to pull one over on someone---i take pride in my business that i have built from literally nothing. I take pride in my animals that i sell, and try to treat all my customers with the respect that they deserve. Most become repeat customers that i deal with regularly for years. Another thing is that when my customers have a problem--i remedy-one way another, until they are as happy as they can get---some people cant be made happy--those are just angry people. So to call all brokers scum and that you should not buy from them, do a little checking around to see all the facts. Do your research online, dont go into a purchase blindly and you will be fine-Ben Siegel

Didnt call all brokers scum Ben, just a lot of them are very unethical. I dont lump you in that category, but there are enough bad ones to make it hard to really sort through the  masses,.

Fred
(Aztec Reptiles)

From what I gather from all of this is that You're just pissed because things didn't work out exactly the way YOU wanted them to.  As many people have already stated, Ball Pythons tend to go off feed sometimes for no apparent reason at all.  With this in mind, just because you happened to get a finicky eater, you want Steve to give you what basically would amount to a full refund.  It was your responsibility as the buyer to contact Steve concerning returning the animal within the 10 day time period.  It's the same as if someone purchased an animal from you.  They would have their 30 days to contact you for a refund or replacement  after which, it's up to the sellers discretion.  That's an agreement which you were perfectly aware of (or should have been) before you even made your purchase.  All I know from any of you people is what I see posted here, which might be slightly biased view but that's how I see it.

Randall Clark

Well I could not help but share my "Professional Breeders" experience:

I purchased a really sweet lavender albino brooks king from Steve at the Orlando show in 2001.  Honestly represented and very beautiful....even to this day.  It eats me out of house and home

As for pythons....they can be very funny.  I had a friend "Isis Reptiles" that sold me a Cape York spotted python.  The snake was doing great for them but for me it did not do as good.  Did I blame them....no.....should you blame Steve....I don't think so.  You have learned a 2500$ lesson.....pythons are difficult....all of them!

Just because of the lesson I learned 250$ worth, I shy away from pythons and boas and have had wonderful success with Kings and Corns.  My recommendation is ...if you really love pythons....buy some lower end snakes and learn with those.  When you have mastered a few years of successful eating and breeding move up to the high end stuff.

Bottom line....you are probably a good guy...Steve is a good guy and there no sense in trashing him.  Sometimes snakes produce weak offspring....there is really no way for someone to predict which ones will fall into that ricebowl...after just 2 or 3 feedings.

Best O Luck,
Russ

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Fred, it sure does seem to me like you are angry with someone in particular that sold you some bad animals and you are transposing that to this situation. It is a misconception that breeders breed and brokers broker. Nearly every large breeder sells animals that they do not produce. Nearly every person that I know that sells other peoples animals (CB stuff not imports) either is breeding animals or has bred them and is on hiatus. Broker is really a bad term too. A broker sells for someone else. Almost all of the reptile dealers buy and resell.

The reality of this situation is that through his language, insults and conflicting stories, this buyer has shown us that what he is really upset with Steve about is that he does not get a lifetime guarentee on his purchase. I have friends that have bought $25,000-$65,000 ball pythons that have not eaten and ones that died. They got nothing. This guy has a healthy pair of young adult animals that he paid market price for. Is Steve responsible for three years of the buyers husbandry? That is just crazy.

I understand the frustration involved in what you are saying Fred. I deal with it everday. I was criticized as being somebody who just buys and resells others animals earlier this season. The reality is simple. I can not produce every species that my customers want so I have to buy some things or trade for them. Does it always work out? No. Does it work out 90%+ of the time, yes.

The reality is also that I produce a bunch of stuff. I am well over 280 species produced in my life now. I am very pleased with that. I produced about 25 species and mutations this season. A friend of mine and I have a joint collection that is about 400 animals right now. I will produce a bunch of stuff every year. When I sell something I tell the buyer if I produced it or if someone else did. I back all of them the same way and have several hundred recent customers as well as ones that I have had for 10-15 years to back that up. I was just at a show today and had three customers from a few months ago stop in to let me know how great their boas and pythons the had purchased from me were doing. I also make a point of it to only sell animals from others after I have housed and fed them for awhile so that I feel confident with them.

As to these other posts, I don't know what they said specifically as they were deleted before I could read them, but I will say this to all who read this, any questions you have about me, my animals or past dealings, come and ask me and I will tell you. One particular German who I noticed on this thread has been slandering me for over three years over a failed attemp to defraud me. I am happy to tell anyone about it. I am also happy to give as many references as anyone would like. If anyone wants to post a topic here solicting for comments on animals purchased from me, please do. There are already some on here from earlier this year that were all positive. Thanks for reading this long reply Fred. I hope your opinion of our business changes for the better at some point. There are many great things about it. &nbsp;Evan Stahl
Evansnakes@aol.com

Maybe I am missing something here, but if I sold someone an 80 gram animal, then two years later they wanted to send it back to me weighing 700 grams for a replacement (I am assuming, for another 80 gram juvenile), I would have to think to myself. "Why not?"

What exactly goes Geoff want?

I have sold to Geoff before without any problems. &nbsp;I have bought from Steve before without any problems. &nbsp;So I must be missing some crucial bit of information here.

I guess this will be my last post on this.

Just making a few things clear:

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I acknowledge the fact that you have a written policy that is a 10 day period in which
to express your concerns if a snake isn't to up to your standards,etc.
First, 10 days isn't even the length of time of a quarantine.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I spam_K N O W!!!
So quit ripping me for the idea that there is a written 10 day guarantee on the snakes.
He verbally, not in writing, told me if there was any problems with the snakes to call him and we would work it out.
I now go with what ever is in writing spam_and if a seller tells me they are going to go above and beyond what is in their written policy, I will have them put it in writing and sign it.
I no longer ask what there policy is, I just read what they have already written and take it for what it is.
I am more than willing to acknowledge the fact that Steve has fulfilled his written guarantee.
He stated he would do otherwise, but only verbally.
I still say his word is as good as a pile of manure!
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You have learned a 2500$ lesson.....pythons are difficult....all of them!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

How true! OUCH! spam_That's a lot of money for me <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> spam_and I shouldn't have gambled it.
Shoulda bought some more corns from Rich. spam_HE IS A HELL OF A GUY AND STANDS BY WHAT HE SELLS!
I (and I'm sure steve) appreciate the comments but I don't want to drag you into the quagmire that has been created here.
In response to orcutti:

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The snake is surviving, but it is not thriving. Why spend money on a captive born animal if it is not thriving? Who would choose to do that? Doesn't the seller have some obligation to insure that the supposedly "genetically superior", captive born animals he/she sells are going to do better than just "survive"? Are customers supposed to be buying with the understanding that their investment is actually gambling? If so then the terms should include a statement that says "Not all snakes that I sell do well and if the one you just purchased doesn't then it's your problem not mine.". Might as well go buy a wild-caught from an importer since most of us can get them to at least "survive". Or if you want to have hets then buy them from the cheapest seller you can find if you have to gamble on them "surviving" anyway. Hell, with force feeding I can make any snake "survive". But that is not what he paid for is it? Would any quality breeder want to use this animal in their breeding program even if you could do so? Steve has certainly protected himself with his terms of sale but a quality seller would be able to see that this is a gray area where additional support would be appropriate. This is just my 1.5 cents of opinion. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

It is a gamble when you make an investment in snakes. spam_I KNOW THIS!
I bought from Steve to help improve my odds of the investment paying off.
It turns out my investment in Professional Breeders is like putting all of my money in Enron stock spam_<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
This isn't my stance for attack though. spam_I do mostly agree with you though and thanks for posting!


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And you don't need to guess, he stated the reason why he didn't answer your call</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Boavoyage
The last time I TRIED to contact steve stating that I had a problem feeder I sent him emails first, then called him and left messages, and then faxed him. spam_HE DIDN'T RESPOND!
He didn't tell me anything over the phone until I had to call him and leave a message saying I was someone interested in buying some snakes and then he called me back.
He wouldn't acknowledge me UNTIL I left the deceptive message.
I think it is crazy that people are attacking me (ignorantly) for getting lied to.
Facts are facts. spam_That is all I have stated here.
I am not ripping steve, just telling you all what he promised and that he reneged upon what he promised.
I'm not making erroneous accusations like the pythons don't fetch the morning paper or they didn't breed and have all albino babies or even that they were ugly.
She just does't eat well at all!
That's it!
That's all I am complaining about!
Steve said if I had problems to contact him and we would work it out insinuating no time frame was applicable.
I tried to contact him and he ignored me!
When I finally did talk to him about it, he went back on his word.
He wasn't willing to work it out.
He LIED! spam_Told me a fib! spam_A big 'ol whopper! spam_A fish tale! spam_He yanked my chain!
What more can I say?!

Geoff Stricker
angry customer

If you go into a music store and buy an instrument do you necessarily know how to play it?

Raising animals is a learning experience. &nbsp;Like with an instrument, practice most definately makes more beautiful music, long term experience with animals can lead to better results.

At some point the breeder must let go, or he would be raising and breeding the animal himself.

Every breeder has a track record where many successful projects have been started from their original stock. I am sure that Steve's customers have a long list of projects they have successfully completed from their initial purchase-to they themselves having their own customers. I know that that list far and above over the many many years Steve has been in business-he is one of the pioneers of the industry-exceeds the customers that unfortunately for whatever reason have not completed raising or bred their animals.

In every communication I have had with Steve for what is at the minimum 12 years-I can't ever imagine him not going the distance to help a person learn techniques to better maintain their animals. Ultimately there is no substitute for experience, and the irony I think in this case is the opportunity lost in trying to understand ball python behavior better-and know that their are individual differences-

There is one thing I know about ball pythons-after having them over a 21 year period-we definately underestimate interactions they have with their environment, and intraspecific and interspecific relationships.

I am sorry you have had what you consider to be a bad experience with a ball python. They are awesome snakes!!

Wow everyone has LOOOng posts.
so I will try to make mine short and sweet.

In my opinion. spam_I feel the breeder has done everything he can in this case. spam_He has gone above and beyond the call of "duty".

Snakes are a weird bunch with a personality all their own.
sometimes they just do not like their surroundings. spam_I have close to thirty snakes (small collection). spam_Every single one is doing excellent. spam_Well, except for one. spam_She was fat when I got her. spam_She fed regularly for her previous owner. spam_But for me...she does not like to eat. spam_Now she is kinda skinny and eating one out of five meals. spam_I know it can't be my husbandry. spam_Everything is perfect; temps humidity; enclosure size etc etc. and if it was my husbandry....why is the other twenty nine in my collection doing well?

Sometimes the snake and the snake keeper just don't mix.

I also bought a pair of het. albinos from Steve Osborne in 1997.
Both the male and female fed well on thawed mice until they were about two years old. At this time the female started to show little interest in feeding, and wasn't gaining enough weight for my first breeding attempt. I called Steve Osborne and he suggested I return to feeding live rodents. My local pet store had a sale on albino hamsters and my het. female loved them! She quickly gained weight on two hamsters a week and easily "shifted" to eating rats. She produced five albinos over the past three years, but if I hadn't tried spam_feeding live rodents, I never would have gotten her to breeding size.

Please understand , Geoff, that no breeder can guarantee that a pair of snakes will reproduce for you. A lot of things can go wrong: feeding problems, males or females that won't copulate,infertile eggs, etc. You can't blame Steve for this- it sounds like he sold you healthy animals and I believe with more "work" on the female, you could succeed in producing albinos.

Sincerely,

Larry Gruber