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Old 03-21-2019, 09:28 PM   #11
Helenthereef
One thing NZ does have is the guts to immediately act to ban "Military-style" semi-automatic weapons in response to this attack ... Good for them.


"On 15 March our history changed forever. Now our laws will too. We are announcing action today on behalf of all New Zealanders to strengthen our gun laws and make our country a safer place," Ardern said at a press conference in the capital Wellington.
The announcement came after the country's cabinet agreed to overhaul the law and ban military-style semi-automatics and assault rifles 72 hours after the Christchurch attacks.
"Every semi-automatic weapon used in the terror attack on Friday will be banned," Ardern continued, adding that she hoped the law would be in place by April 11. "This legislation will be drafted and introduced in urgency."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/20/a...ntl/index.html
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:03 AM   #12
nickolasanastasiou
I saw the video. The shooter was monstrous in his actions and the destruction of life was deeply saddening.

That said, I am in a way glad I could see it. I find it important for some people to choose to feel pain regarding painful things at times. It is upsetting. I should feel upset about it. To feel the abyssal "wrongness" of it as strongly as I could besides an unseen abstraction that does not reach me as well like a written account might (no matter how well written) is the value that the video brought to me. I think that some things, for some people, should involve not looking away. Especially for the nightmarish yet real. Not right for everyone, but right for me.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 04:27 AM   #13
Helenthereef
I think it's a tricky question. Personally I don't want images of actual murder in my mind's eye.

I don't believe in censorship as a concept, but I do feel that there is such a thing as over-exposure to violence that leads to desensitisation and even glorification of such acts, and diminishes the atrocity of violence in peoples' minds.

New Zealand is still a gentler place than many parts of the developed world, and I am certain that they are correct in not broadcasting video of the actual shooting.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 02:01 PM   #14
wvaherp
I have not seen the video and I don't have any real desire to, but I tend to agree with Nick on this one. There are things that cannot be described with words and can only be truly understood by bearing witness to or experiencing them. Not all people can handle such a gut check, but it is sometimes an irreplaceable tool for confirming one's own humanity and morals.

Being this as it is, I do not support wholesale censorship of most things, nor do I support the video being removed from public view. If someone doesn't want to watch it, I believe the onus is on them as an individual to not watch it. I believe you end up with a weaker individual if you shelter them too much from the world (just like all the freshmen I've seen in the college towns I've lived in who get taken advantage of or end up partying their way out of school because they were too sheltered at home with mommy and daddy).

And as far as NZ's newly announced "military-style" weapons ban is concerned, I don't agree with it at all. I know there are cultural and political differences between NZ and the US, but in our case I believe it's ridiculous to think any of the other protections afforded to us in our bill of rights can stand for long without the 2nd enumerated and protected right. Don't get me wrong, a peaceful world where we'd never have to resort to violent force to defend ourselves (from any manner of threats) would be ideal, but human nature certainly makes that seem unlikely to ever be the case. This might be coming from my own slightly jaded outlook, but there are truly wicked people in this world and I don't think that will ever change. Taking away the legal right to an efficient defense of one's own life or the lives of others seems pretty backwards in the wake of events like this (and yes, I do think an armed and reasonably well trained civilian could have at least prevented so many people from being killed in Christchurch).

In summary, I suppose you could say I'm not the type to defer my responsibilities to a ruling or governing body who thinks they know what's best for me (or you)...
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:09 PM   #15
Socratic Monologue
While the first clause in this conjunction is undeniably true, even obvious:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvaherp View Post
but there are truly wicked people in this world and I don't think that will ever change.
...the second clause is arguably one of the most widely held and dangerous self-fulfilling prophesies around.

We -- collectively -- haven't put much energy at all into understanding why people are wicked. Even psychology has changed over time from 'the study of the mind' into 'the study of human behavior', and so we don't even have a scientific discipline that could help us figure out what's behind people's wicked behavior.

We've thrown around many ideas, though: some people say that if everyone loved Jesus with all their heart, they would be good. But there are too many counterexamples of (apparently) true believers who have done horrifying things.

Some people say if everyone had enough money, they'd be good. But there are too many counterexamples of well-off people who have done horrifying things.

Ban guns; too many counterexamples of non-firearm violence (worse by far than mass shootings, even. For every firearm death in the US, twenty cases of child abuse occur. Twenty.).

Ban drugs; makes things worse.

Ban alcohol; made things worse.

So while it is true that we haven't changed, it is also true that we haven't really tried to get underneath behavior and figure out why people (me, you, everybody) are like this. And if we did, would we do anything about it? We can't even figure out how to get roads fixed -- are we going to change the fact that each of us approaches each other from behind a shield and with a dagger in hand? Do we have the guts?
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:11 PM   #16
WebSlave
And so another country that hasn't figured out that you can't defend your constituents from monsters by removing one of the well known HIGHLY effective methods of deterring and fighting them.



Making schools gun free zones hasn't worked out too well, now has it? So who in their right mind would think making an entire country a gun free zone is going to create that peaceful utopia with everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya they are being promised? If anyone believes that, I have a very valuable bridge in New York I am offering for sale to you. Cash only, please.

 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:14 PM   #17
Socratic Monologue
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post
If anyone believes that, I have a very valuable bridge in New York I am offering for sale to you. Cash only, please.
I will have my assistant send you a money order. I'll add $50 for keeping it in my favor. Please provide your mailing address and final price.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:53 PM   #18
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
I will have my assistant send you a money order. I'll add $50 for keeping it in my favor. Please provide your mailing address and final price.
Sorry, CASH only.......
 
Old 03-22-2019, 04:12 PM   #19
wvaherp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
While the first clause in this conjunction is undeniably true, even obvious:



...the second clause is arguably one of the most widely held and dangerous self-fulfilling prophesies around....

This is all very well put and true. I don't disagree with you at all (not that I believe you were doing so with my post). It really just highlights the state that we as a society or species are in. Not that I think it's any different than any historical era, in all honesty. While you're absolutely right about it being a self fulfilling prophecy to say I don't think it will ever change, that doesn't mean I don't wish it to. It certainly seems to be part of our nature in general though.

We really should put effort into "facing our demons" and figuring out where the underlying issues are, but as you say "do we have the guts?" I personally believe there is at least a glimmer of wickedness in most, if not all, people and the fear many feel of having those thoughts or feelings brought into the light is part of what prevents us from moving forward. It really helps explain the "shield and dagger" you describe. If I'm correct in this, it also seems to help outline how this apparent war on anything deemed as possibly offensive is making things significantly worse on a multitude of fronts...

I've actually gone through about 5 revisions with different examples of how over-sensitization of some people and conversely the natural push-back by others against being told what you can and can't say or do combined with seemingly natural tendencies of humans towards doing "bad things" equals inordinately worse things, but I'm having trouble making sure they're clear and coherent at the moment (it's Friday, lol).

All in all, I think that we suffer from a complex of trying to make things better without fully understanding them (let alone the unintended consequences) in the first place. This obviously gets us into quite a bit of trouble as a species.

Though there are plenty of cases where I sit back and wonder if some of these "unintended" consequences of policies were in fact unintended at all...

Obviously this is all a massive oversimplification of a subject that is likely as old as our sentience and more complex than most care to bother with, but it's still a more productive conversation than one about trying to regulate/legislate our way into morality or safety from those who would do us harm.


Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on anything or even all that well-read or educated. I'm just some hack who tries to rationalize and think things through on occasion...
 
Old 03-22-2019, 07:02 PM   #20
Socratic Monologue
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post
And so another country that hasn't figured out that you can't defend your constituents from monsters by removing one of the well known HIGHLY effective methods of deterring and fighting them.
Unfortunately, here is one example of how a good guy (girl) with a gun couldn't stop a bad guy with a gun, one year later:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...erself-n986266

Sometimes the monster gets inside your child's head, and then all the deterrence in the world won't help. What a horrible waste.
 

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