Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

I must say that I'm absolutely in shock. This thread should never have existed until definitive proof was provided that showed there was something to worry about..

If the thread didn't list a specific seller and was simply a request for information on snakes that developed blisters with or without a vet diagnosis then that would have been a valid thread. Hiding the motive behind fact finding to enable hyperbole, conjecture and accusation of specific diseases, risks, and actions without supplying proof is problematic.

I'm absolutely not defending Underground as I think their reviews speak for themselves but claiming your trying to do some fact finding while using what could be simply made up sources (as they remained anonymous) to support conjecture is pretty clearly hiding the real intent.


some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by EdwardK

If the thread didn't list a specific seller and was simply a request for information on snakes that developed blisters with or without a vet diagnosis then that would have been a valid thread.

Not speaking to anyone's motives, I for one am glad that the OP included the information he did - simply because the seller's name in conjunction with this issue is what grabbed my attention as I was scanning the BOI. As another customer of Undergound who purchased a water snake that is beginning to show strange symptoms of something, this thread stopped me cold.

After the bumps began appearing on her scales (not open lesions - just tiny white 'bumps' that cleared after each shed) I scoured the internet for information on any and all forms of skin/scale issues and nothing seemed to fit what she was exhibiting. After seeing the identical white bumps on some of the OP's snakes I realized that this isn't just some strange shedding issue that I should monitor, but something that I should actively and aggressively investigate with my veterinarian. While I'd considered a vet visit before, I had hesitated due to her showing no other symptoms whatsoever and the spontaneous clearing of the bumps after shedding.

Was waiting a bad call? In hindsight, definitely. But without this thread I may still be waiting.

This may turn out to be something entirely different from SFD, and if it is, I'll breathe a huge sigh of relief and move on to addressing the diagnosed issue, whatever it may be.

For me personally, what it comes down to is that if this is something serious (regardless of what it is) and the seller wasn't named, this wouldn't have gone on the BOI and I likely wouldn't have seen it or connected the dots in regards to my own animal. Since she's shed again and looks perfectly normal, I'd probably still be scratching my head over those strange dots and wondering if I should even take her in.

Originally Posted by bcr229

According to Logan, his water snakes were advertised as CB not WC.

To clarify, this is a screenshot of the advertisement for the snake I purchased.

And just so nobody gets confused by my name (as its easy to do!), I am in fact female :P

Originally Posted by Logan256

Not speaking to anyone's motives, I for one am glad that the OP included the information he did - simply because the seller's name in conjunction with this issue is what grabbed my attention as I was scanning the BOI. As another customer of Undergound who purchased a water snake that is beginning to show strange symptoms of something, this thread stopped me cold.

After the bumps began appearing on her scales (not open lesions - just tiny white 'bumps' that cleared after each shed) I scoured the internet for information on any and all forms of skin/scale issues and nothing seemed to fit what she was exhibiting. After seeing the identical white bumps on some of the OP's snakes I realized that this isn't just some strange shedding issue that I should monitor, but something that I should actively and aggressively investigate with my veterinarian. While I'd considered a vet visit before, I had hesitated due to her showing no other symptoms whatsoever and the spontaneous clearing of the bumps after shedding.

Was waiting a bad call? In hindsight, definitely. But without this thread I may still be waiting.

This may turn out to be something entirely different from SFD, and if it is, I'll breathe a huge sigh of relief and move on to addressing the diagnosed issue, whatever it may be.

For me personally, what it comes down to is that if this is something serious (regardless of what it is) and the seller wasn't named, this wouldn't have gone on the BOI and I likely wouldn't have seen it or connected the dots in regards to my own animal. Since she's shed again and looks perfectly normal, I'd probably still be scratching my head over those strange dots and wondering if I should even take her in.

This being said, how are you going to feel if it turns out to be nothing? Since seeing this thread "stopped you cold" and made you fear that your snake might have a terribly contagious, incurable, mortal disease, is that a good thing (assuming that's not the case at all)?

To me this thread is spreading fear with absolutely no grounds for doing so. If the test results come back showing that it's SFD, by all means, make a thread and alert people. So far there is ZERO evidence that it is other than that one person in a facebook group said it might be. That is NOT grounds for causing panic.

If your snake is perfectly healthy and doing well other than having an odd appearance before shedding (which goes away after the shed), why would you think it has this disease? Because this person scared you into thinking it must since it came from UR? You obviously had no reason to think the snake was unhealthy or in need of vet care until you saw this thread, so how is seeing this a good thing? It's incurable, so it's not like catching it and taking it to a vet would make any difference.

You've basically given a perfect example of why this thread should not have been made until there was proof. You have a snake from UR that is perfectly healthy that you're now going to stress out examining and taking to the vet for tests because someone scared you into thinking it has something. You even stated that you didn't think a vet visit was necessary until now because the snake showed no symptoms. Now because of this thread you're terrified and figure your snake is on its deathbed. I don't get it.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

If your snake is perfectly healthy and doing well other than having an odd appearance before shedding (which goes away after the shed), why would you think it has this disease?

You mean, other than the fact that that very scenario just so happens to be consistent with how SFD has been observed in other documented cases - recurring blisters/scabs/lesions that can intermittently clear up to varying degrees?

I'd also say that an actual wildlife biologist lending credence to the possibility would probably carry some weight, with some people.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

It's incurable, so it's not like catching it and taking it to a vet would make any difference.

Simply knowing can make all the difference. Just off the top of my head, here's an extremely simple, plausible hypothetical scenario that you apparently didn't consider: Let's assume her animal only has a milder case of SFD. If recurring blisters that go away upon shedding are the only obvious symptom - no feeding issues, behavioral abnormalities, or obvious signs of distress - it seems reasonable that someone may choose to eventually take it out of quarantine. Without coming across information that leads her to believe her snake has a serious issue, maybe she just assumes that she doesn't quite have her husbandry fully dialed-in yet.

I mean, you've gone as far as absolutely stating that

You have a snake from UR that is perfectly healthy...

so why keep it quarantined? Once in general population, that's when the potential nightmare could begin. I'm sure you could find some people who claim to thoroughly disinfect their hands, all implements, as well as changing clothes before handling different snakes; but I highly doubt that's an even remotely typical practice.

If her snake ends up being negative for SFD, she's had the unfortunate inconvenience and added expense of erring on the side of caution - since she chose to take the possibility seriously. If it is SFD, disaster may have been averted. Can cross-contamination from an animal that's only exhibiting symptoms of a mild SFD infection spread the more severe form to other animals? I'm not sure anyone actually knows.

Frankly, I think it's saying some unflattering things, that someone actively involved in the business side of this hobby, who reads the situation Logan's outlined, apparently feels fine with making the assertion that there's absolutely nothing wrong with her snake.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

I don't get it.

Yeah, the continued whining has made that pretty easy to pick up on. For all of the panic that this thread is supposedly creating about the potential for disease, it's kinda noteworthy that most of the panic I'm seeing is actually in regard to this thread's very existence - not the disease itself.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

You're willing to risk the ability to buy and sell any animals across state lines, or own them at all for that matter, because there's a rare disease out there and you saw a couple snakes with blisters from bad husbandry? As intelligent as you generally come across, I must say that I'm absolutely in shock.

Talk about fear-mongering and trying to create a panic.

"Bad husbandry; perfectly healthy?" You sure don't mind throwing around absolute statements that don't seem to have any basis in reality, when it suits your own agenda. Kinda comical, considering you're complaining about those who openly acknowledge that they're not yet dealing in certainties.

Not that I want to lend any credence to what I think is much more of an alarmist scenario than the whole SFD thing; but it's a sad commentary on this society, that the idea of someone being willing to look past their own short-sighted interests and see the big picture would be considered "shocking." In general, I tend to think that "refreshing" is the more appropriate description for those with the ability to see past themselves and potentially act against their own personal gratification. I know that this is a very distressing idea for a great many people, but we just can't always have exactly what we want. Not even here in 'Murica.

With all that said, I'm not interested in taking this thread any further I look forward to the test results being posted.

Thank you, Dan. You summed my thoughts up rather accurately. Without being to repetitive, I encourage people to read my other posts in this thread. My justifications and actual involvement are explicitly detailed. However, I will address this:

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

You're willing to risk the ability to buy and sell any animals across state lines, or own them at all for that matter, because there's a rare disease out there and you saw a couple snakes with blisters from bad husbandry? As intelligent as you generally come across, I must say that I'm absolutely in shock.

This isn't a case of bad husbandry. In fact, Joe's husbandry was stellar once the animals were in his care. Fungal infections are notoriously difficult to treat because fungal cells are very similar physiologically to animal cells and exhibit the pattern he was describing with animals being symptomatic and then asymptomatic. Common fungal infections, such as Athlete's foot and ringworm, also do this.

I was surprised that the thread was started prior to the lab results, but apparently Joe was asked for additional information about other buyers having similar issues. You seem to have confused my role in the matter; I advised Joe (in addition to other professionals already mentioned) that the lesions were consistent with SFD. I encouraged him to report the possible infection to Florida Fish and Game and the National Wildlife Health Center with USGS. This is standard procedure. Professionals in law enforcement, wildlife biology, veterinary practices, and the medical profession report possible disease outbreaks with everything from rabies to avian influenza. It allows authorities to get their equipment prepared in case the threat is real.

I am not a private investigator nor a law enforcement official. It is up to the various agencies to determine how to respond to disease threats. My role in this case was small. However, I will always side with the conservation of wild organisms over my ability to keep these organisms as pets. I realize this is an unpopular decision to many folks, but I am ethically and morally obligated to do so. It is literally my job.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

This isn't a case of bad husbandry. In fact, Joe's husbandry was stellar once the animals were in his care.

I was surprised that the thread was started prior to the lab results.

I'm confused. I thought that this "diagnosis" was made after seeing a couple pictures on a facebook page. How could you possibly know that his conditions were stellar and that they never diverted from what's ideal for this species ? Did you see his setups in person and work with him daily making sure they were staying correct? I did skip a page earlier, as I said, so maybe I missed that part.

I don't know how you can possibly make that claim based on a couple pictures, especially when he has stated that after changing their conditions they seemed to drastically improve the point that he didn't even consider vet care. That to me implies very clearly that this is an issue of husbandry and nothing more.

I think we're all a little surprised that this thread was made before any results came back. Pain and numbness in my arm could mean I'm having a stroke, or it could be due to the fact that I worked out yesterday. It would be fairly irresponsible for a doctor to tell me I might die or need emergency surgery when it could turn out to be nothing more than sore muscles. Similar symptoms can be caused by many different things.

Maybe I am having a stroke. Maybe this is SFD. But until the results come back, this shouldn't even be something that is discussed IMO. All it does is create fear. In any other professional field this would be considered completely unacceptable.

Dan, if someone's thoughts on quarantining an animal only go so far as "it seems outwardly healthy and I've had it for a week already", I have no sympathy for them if they end up passing something to the rest of their collection. You're basically discounting and disregarding any amount of intelligence or personal accountable in your described scenario. But it helps your argument fit, so I guess more power to you -.-

Also, I'm sorry that I wasn't more careful with my words and you took it the wrong way. I thought it was pretty clear when she said that "there were no other symptoms whatsoever" that the snake was healthy other than some scale issues that went away with a shed, but you know, I guess that's up for interpretation and I shouldn't have taken it as it was written. I also shouldn't take the fact that she said these were just white bumps prior to a shed (what were the symptoms of the disease again? Oh yea, skin lesions, scabby, crusty bumps, swollen eyes, disfigured areas in the nose / lip area...you know, nothing even remotely close to what Logan described) as a sign that she's describing something entirely different. Heck, she even went so far as to specifically state that the bumps she was seeing were NOT open lesions (which again, is inconsistent with the symptoms of the disease).

Ah, but what do I know. I just like whining!

Originally Posted by Fangthane

You mean, other than the fact that that very scenario just so happens to be consistent with how SFD has been observed in other documented cases - recurring blisters/scabs/lesions that can intermittently clear up to varying degrees?
.

Right. Except that she didn't describe any of those things lol. I wonder if you're actually reading the posts or just finding people to disagree with. You seem to like doing that on these types of threads.

Go back and read what the symptoms are and then read what she said she's been experiencing. They don't even sound remotely the same, but now she's scared her snake is going to die because of this thread.

I can't help but feel like you're trying way too hard to make a case that isn't there. Regardless of what the test results say, my argument stands...you shouldn't spread fear of a disease until you have reason/proof. Your argument is that we should tell people there's a good possibility that a super rare disease is going to kill all of their pets and there's nothing they can do about it because there's no cure, but better safe than sorry, at least they know the disease exists and should quarantine (as if they shouldn't have anyway?) If it turns out you're right, great, you were right and they all die and that's that, and we make sure to quarantine slightly more stringently than before. If you're wrong, you just made a whole bunch of people scared and made a huge issue out of something that never even existed. Those are the two scenarios your argument advocates. And that's what you're going with lol.

I'll agree that the test results are the most important thing. I also hope that Joe will go back and make sure everyone he contacted originally are made known of the results whether positive or negative. However, one thing that this thread has done is made me rethink any wild caught animals (or ch) from known infected areas especially until more is known about how it spreads in captivity ( does it take just a couple of spores or is the infection fairly difficult to spread).