Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

I'm confused. I thought that this "diagnosis" was made after seeing a couple pictures on a facebook page. How could you possibly know that his conditions were stellar and that they never diverted from what's ideal for this species ? Did you see his setups in person and work with him daily making sure they were staying correct? I did skip a page earlier, as I said, so maybe I missed that part.

I'd like to re-emphasize that no formal diagnosis was ever made by myself or other experts. We simply said that the lesions were characteristic of SFD, that the animal should be tested for SFD, and authorities should be notified of a potential problem while waiting for the lab results to come in so they are prepared to act if this is indeed SFD. Again, this is standard protocol when dealing with a potentially severe infectious agent. SFD is not widely reported yet and is not on the radar of most folks, so wildlife biologists have been paying close attention to reports of sick snakes from a variety of sources over the past year and encouraging folks to report instances of possible SFD, even if testing is never conducted (such as with wild snakes encountered by herpers).

I have been watching Joe set up his Nerodia enclosures and other photos of his husbandry on the Facebook page Colubrid Crazy for months. He has been documenting the entire process weekly and his setup is rather impressive (he posted photos and explained husbandry earlier in this thread), so yes, although I have not seen the enclosures in person, I have seen enough images of the process to arguably call Joe an expert with Nerodia husbandry. This is why, when Joe posted photos of diseased snakes, that myself and other experts on the page were alarmed that the disease originated with an exporter and not while in his care.

I encourage everyone to read the entire thread before posting more questions. I feel my answers are becoming repetitive. Due to moderator warnings earlier about posts such as this, I would rather obey moderator desires rather than get slapped with infractions for answering similar questions repeatedly.

But, to summarize again (I am excluding the time frame here of the snakes in his ownership because I cannot recall exact timing off hand):
- Joe posted photos of his Nerodia habitats for months prior to getting Nerodia
- Joe purchased Nerodia from Underground Reptiles
- Joe posted photos of sick Nerodia on the Facebook page Colubrid classifieds asking for advice
- Myself and another expert said the lesions are congruent with SFD and the animal should be tested
- We (meaning the experts) directed Joe to take the snake to the vet immediately
- Joe's vet agreed that the lesions look like SFD lesions and sent samples to Dr. Allender's lab for qPCR analysis at the University of Illinois
- Joe contacted the USGS National Wildlife Health Center, Florida Fish and Game, and Underground Reptiles, alerting them of a potential problem while waiting for the labwork to come back (standard disease-reporting protocol we asked him to follow)
- Joe posted this BOI asking if anyone else has received animals from Underground Reptiles that have similar lesions with the desire to get those animals tested immediately

We are waiting for the lab results to come in. Given the holiday season, it may take 1-2 weeks for the results to come back.

My only role in this situation was giving the initial advice concerning a POSSIBLE diagnosis and testing and reporting options. The rest of this is out of my hands. This will be my last post until the lab results come in, and I mean it this time. If you have questions, feel free to PM me directly. I will not address them here.

Originally Posted by Logan256

To clarify, this is a screenshot of the advertisement for the snake I purchased.

And just so nobody gets confused by my name (as its easy to do!), I am in fact female :P

My apologies, I used to date a guy named Logan.

Have you had a chance to make an appointment with your vet yet?

Originally Posted by Fangthane

Simply knowing can make all the difference. Just off the top of my head, here's an extremely simple, plausible hypothetical scenario that you apparently didn't consider: Let's assume her animal only has a milder case of SFD. If recurring blisters that go away upon shedding are the only obvious symptom - no feeding issues, behavioral abnormalities, or obvious signs of distress - it seems reasonable that someone may choose to eventually take it out of quarantine. Without coming across information that leads her to believe her snake has a serious issue, maybe she just assumes that she doesn't quite have her husbandry fully dialed-in yet.

I mean, you've gone as far as absolutely stating that so why keep it quarantined? Once in general population, that's when the potential nightmare could begin. I'm sure you could find some people who claim to thoroughly disinfect their hands, all implements, as well as changing clothes before handling different snakes; but I highly doubt that's an even remotely typical practice.

If her snake ends up being negative for SFD, she's had the unfortunate inconvenience and added expense of erring on the side of caution - since she chose to take the possibility seriously. If it is SFD, disaster may have been averted. Can cross-contamination from an animal that's only exhibiting symptoms of a mild SFD infection spread the more severe form to other animals? I'm not sure anyone actually knows.

This is exactly my line of thinking as to why I'm reacting the way I am. If this water snake was my only snake or my only reptile in general, I may take a bit more of a 'wait and see' approach pending the outcome of the OP's tests. Knowing me, I'd still take her in regardless, but I would be less concerned overall. However, I have a collection of over 40 snakes that I love dearly and that I have invested years and thousands upon thousands of dollars in. Many of my snakes are giants - burms, retics, and boas - and should one come down with something similar that required any kind of medicated soak or similar treatment, it would be difficult simply due to their large size. If they -all- did, or became ill in any way due to me under-reacting to this or any other possible threat, it would be absolutely devastating. I'd much rather treat the situation as a real problem and have it be nothing than assume it's nothing and have it be serious.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

Dan, if someone's thoughts on quarantining an animal only go so far as "it seems outwardly healthy and I've had it for a week already", I have no sympathy for them if they end up passing something to the rest of their collection.

I have had this particular snake in quarantine for nearing two months, and in quarantine she will remain. My quarantine period varies based on each particular animal and any symptoms it may be showing upon arrival or that they develop while quarantined - but it is never less than 8 weeks, even if everything is perfect. She's nearing that mark, and while the bumps themselves would likely have kept her there for longer, if six months from now she was still otherwise perfectly healthy...who knows. I'd never seen anything like this before, and wasn't even sure it was a medical issue. I'll admit that. It looked nothing like any other skin or fungal issue I researched. However it does look identical to images the OP has posted of his own snakes.

Originally Posted by bcr229

My apologies, I used to date a guy named Logan.

Have you had a chance to make an appointment with your vet yet?

No worries! Sadly my vet closed for the holiday before I could get an appointment made, so I'm having to wait until Monday. They're usually good about getting me in fast, so I'm hoping to have her in that day or on Tuesday at the latest. I've also saved her last shed and will have it sent for testing as well.

Borrowing OP's picture to highlight the white bumps on this particular snake. If you disregard the issues on its head, this is exactly what my snake looks like each time before she sheds. I'd estimate that each time she's had between 5 and 15 such bumps down the length of her body, and each time they disappear completely.

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before i hope my snakes are okay...


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Originally Posted by moneejah

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before i hope my snakes are okay...


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If your snakes appear healthy and are acting normally, I wouldn't be concerned I have several other animals from Underground, including other snakes, that are all thriving with zero issues. The snakes in this thread have visible issues that may or may not be related to where they came from and are currently undiagnosed.

Originally Posted by moneejah

I am worried because I have bought snakes from Underground before i hope my snakes are okay...


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Add one more to the list of people scared by this thread...

Logan, do you mind posting pictures of your snake's bumps? Nothing against you personally, I just work with a ton of different people who have snake questions and have had owners think a snake hissing was an RI or that an adult female who had bred laying on her side was a sign of IBD. I like to see the symptoms myself as sometimes things can be exaggerated/misconstrued. Again, nothing at all against you, I'd just like to see the symptoms you're describing (as I'm sure others would).

For everyone's sake I hope it turns out to be nothing, but I'm curious to see your animal in addition to the ones already posted. I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

Add one more to the list of people scared by this thread...

Logan, do you mind posting pictures of your snake's bumps? Nothing against you personally, I just work with a ton of different people who have snake questions and have had owners think a snake hissing was an RI or that an adult female who had bred laying on her side was a sign of IBD. I like to see the symptoms myself as sometimes things can be exaggerated/misconstrued. Again, nothing at all against you, I'd just like to see the symptoms you're describing (as I'm sure others would).

For everyone's sake I hope it turns out to be nothing, but I'm curious to see your animal in addition to the ones already posted. I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

I completely understand. I do have one photo posted from the 16th of this month that shows the bumps returning before her last shed, but unfortunately I didn't think to get any pictures when they were at their worst. She shed the day after I found this thread and the bumps cleared again. Rest assured, photos will be taken if and when they return. I do have a previous shed that I'd be happy to photograph that may show evidence of the bumps, but I'll have to check it as I'm not sure if it actually does. This is the photo I posted previously, with the white bumps beginning to becoming visible on her side. Note that this last outbreak was milder than the two before, with the first outbreak being the worst.

I definitely think this thread will get people concerned and probably result in euthanization of animals in people who have too much to lose to risk it. However, as far as regulations are concerned I am less concerned. I would imagine most of the regulations seekers will either soon be fired or hiding in fear of being drained from the swamp lol

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

I'm actually a little confused why you haven't posted your own animal, all you've done so far is copy the OP's pictures and say "they look like this". You also just copied the page on underground where they're being sold instead of showing that you bought from them.

Forgot to address this in my last post - I posted my own animal and reciepts from Underground on page 5 (post #s 42 and 44), with follow-up photos after her shed on page 8 (Post # 76).