Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

Someone who feels he has acted in good faith yet has failed to substantiate any of his claims, has yet to have these "several other people who had snakes die" come here to verify that statement (but has continued to make anonymous third party claims throughout this entire thread), and when people ask him to provide proof he gets defensive and calls them names. You're right dan, he has "good guy" written all over him

There has been ONE person come forward, I know that is not multiple but it is not NONE either.
I have no axe in this fight, which is what it has boiled down to.
I hope the op does come back and provide some light on lab results which should help matters no end.

You're correct, one person came that was not even related to the OP. The pictures posted by her (Logan) do not appear to be even remotely similar to those posted by the OP in my opinion. Her snake actually looks very healthy.

I'm wondering where the multiple people are that the OP referred to. He's had plenty of time to tell them about this thread, and as mad as he gets that people question him you'd think he'd love nothing more than to get these other owners here to run it in the face of all of us nay-Sayers.

I'm not sure how well these pictures will show up but these are examples of SFD as exemplified on one of the links the OP provided as proof that it has wiped out 100% of IL populations (which it didn't state at all, but that's beside the point).

I'm not a vet, but none of the pictures I've seen from the OP or Logan look even remotely close to this.

Actually, that top photo does look very much like Joe's photo. At least to my eyes.
Thanks for posting.

I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.

Originally Posted by snakesareawesome

I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.

If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=585531

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou View Post
If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=585531
I agree.






Quote:
Originally Posted by snakesareawesome View Post
I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.
SFD and any speculations aside, Joe directly accused Underground of selling sick snakes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.
After having said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I bought a group of water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. It was a small order for them but they spent time with me, answered all my questions, shipped exactly what I ordered, and followed up with a phone call to check on the snakes.

They move a lot of inventory, much of it wild caught, so you have to understand who / what your dealing with. But with that in mind, I think they did a very good job with this order of mine.

Joe Monahan
If one is speculating and does not know exactly what is going on or where the symptoms came from, making a direct accusation to Underground of selling sick snakes was not a good idea and cannot be unsaid.

I agree with all those that have said that we need to read, research, and be very careful with husbandry. But we do not need to be making careless accusations.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou View Post
If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.



http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=585531

I agree.

Originally Posted by snakesareawesome View Post
I'm not sure Underground could really sue as Joe said he speculated it could be SFD, not that it was, and he had the opinion of someone who has seen SFD in the wilds plus a vet backing this up that it could be SFD and testing is in order. However, I think it's reasonable that Underground would not comment without consulting an attorney given the seriousness of the claim to harm their business. From my limited reading, the fungus can grow on things besides snakes so anything brought in the infected areas, plants, logs, etc, could also contain spores. I live in an infected area and have found wild snakes hibernating in my basement and this is a relatively new home well sealed. The fact is this disease is going to be a threat from now on and it's already too late to stop it.

SFD and any speculations aside, Joe directly accused Underground of selling sick snakes:

Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.

After having said this:

Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123 View Post
I bought a group of water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. It was a small order for them but they spent time with me, answered all my questions, shipped exactly what I ordered, and followed up with a phone call to check on the snakes.

They move a lot of inventory, much of it wild caught, so you have to understand who / what your dealing with. But with that in mind, I think they did a very good job with this order of mine.

Joe Monahan

If one is speculating and does not know exactly what is going on or where the symptoms came from, making a direct accusation to Underground of selling sick snakes was not a good idea and cannot be unsaid.

I agree with all those that have said that we need to read, research, and be very careful with husbandry. But we do not need to be making careless accusations.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

You're correct, one person came that was not even related to the OP. The pictures posted by her (Logan) do not appear to be even remotely similar to those posted by the OP in my opinion. Her snake actually looks very healthy.

I agree, my snake does look much better than the OP's snakes. However, she is displaying odd physical symptoms that, at their worst, are identical to some of the symptoms on the OP's animals. The white bumps are odd - from the moment they appeared, I knew they were odd. After researching any and all skin/scale issues I could find reference to, I just didn't have a good comparison, so I took a "wait and see" approach. That changed after I saw the OP's images. Are they as bad as the ones on his animals? No - they are not. I admit that readily. Is my snake displaying the other symptoms? No - not at this point. But the bumps are the same, and that's enough to make me take the issue seriously no matter the cause.

I'm not saying that I think this is SFD. I don't know what this is, and I'm hoping after my vet visit tomorrow and after the results come in I'll know a bit more. It just struck me as coincidental that he and I both purchased baby water snakes from the same seller at the same time that are showing very similar symptoms that I haven't seen anywhere else (I'm speaking to my snake's issue specifically here).

Until the results come in from both the OP's tests and the tests I'm having done tomorrow, I'm reserving judgement.

I think your approach to this simultaneously shows your concern and exercises fairness, Logan.