Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Invoice and prescription -

Login, thanks for getting your vet involved. Look forward to hearing the results.

Thanks for updating, Logan. I'm glad your snakes saw the vet and I wish them a speedy recovery. Hopefully the griseofulvin will knock that infection back down. If it does, that would imply, though not definitively prove, that it's SFD (or at least some fungal disease). It would be great to get biopsies to show one way or the other but of course you and your vet would have to weigh the risks of a biopsy if indeed your snakes get back to full health. I'm hoping they will!

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

If the fungus thought potentially causative here can live well enough on environmental materials, it may be difficult to show that Underground is the source by way of this distant testing. I am not saying it is or is not this fungus and I am not saying it did or did not come from the alleged source if it is found/identified in the samples taken, but there is an element of plausible deniability here if the suspected pathogen can be introduced to the received animals via contaminated caging materials.

Its already been determined to have a very wide distribution and yes it can do just fine in the environment see ALLENDER, Matthew C., et al. "The natural history, ecology, and epidemiology of Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola and its potential impact on free-ranging snake populations." (2015).

http://wwx.inhs.illinois.edu/files/4...l_Ecol2015.pdf

some comments

Ed

So my take on this thread is that a member that had posted probably less than 40 posts decides to try and contribute in the best way he figures, then gets blasted by people doing this for up to and over a decade. People that know they are wrong get defensive, deflect, and run away. People who are innocent do the same and take it worse, because they are double dipped as victims. Now there are some great people out there that really do our community a huge service bringing scammers to light. I am over ecstatic that Robert is back as a moderator where he belongs. Now maybe this guy approached it wrong, but could anyone try and help him do it in a more tactful way? Do we have to beat everyone up because they are guilty until proven trustworthy? I see a guy who has a vet bill so has a entry level of accountability. Don't know Logan, but she spoke up contributing to the cause. Vanessa has and deserves much respect as does Nickolas, for what they bring to the table. I am sure they both can and will agree that when you send samples out, it can take awhile to get the results back, especially during a holiday. I have seen samples sent off to Florida and results not back for over a month. Usually these specialists in a certain field have many cases and specimens, not drinking coffee waiting for work. Now had someone given him a direction to take and show more interest in seeing if the danger was real, he would not be banned and could share the results when they arrive. Now if and when results show up, who jumps up and takes responsibility for possibly losing valuable information for the community? I just think we should keep hammering on people who have stolen money, animals, scam, etc., but maybe give a little room to people and guidance to those who are supposedly help and then let them become a hero or hang themselves.

Originally Posted by Randy F

Now had someone given him a direction to take and show more interest in seeing if the danger was real, he would not be banned and could share the results when they arrive. Now if and when results show up, who jumps up and takes responsibility for possibly losing valuable information for the community?

My understanding is that the OP is on an Admin imposed, short, "time out" and not on a perma ban.
Hopefully, when he is able to post again, he will post the results whenever he gets them. As you pointed out, it could take a bit of time before the OP does get the results.

....

He has the ability to bring his evidence to the table in this thread since it relates to Underground by construction and it would be good to contribute more information to the situation surrounding the snakes he and others have bought from the source which could carry the pathogen or something like it. He also, thanks to Dan, has a thread that can serve to foster discussion over the disease itself aside from Underground, concerns over that disease, and cultivate a plan for how to proceed (as well as guide those new to it).

There were instructions issued here regarding anonymous third-party quotations, warnings about repeated off-topic tangential deviations (with a go-forward alternative suggested and generated to enable avoidance of those as problems), and so forth. He was not the only member to ignore some of those things. More than one member received infractions and not every instance was given an infraction because it was hoped there would be some self-control. If enough infractions are earned and applied, a system-generated temporary ban can come into effect. Up to that point, a person is perfectly free to stop, regroup, and conduct oneself in a manner that works with, rather than against, the framework of rules here. Not only did some members not follow instructions to avoid infractions (and outright ignored them as though they deserve special exception), but there were instances where the words typed showed that it was already known that things would or could be crossing the line in some of the very posts that crossed them.

Everyone posting here is capable of self-management. When some knowingly refuse to do so, their choices can trigger results and those results are pretty basic in terms of cause and effect.

I feel the BOI-relevant pieces are important. I feel the off-topic pieces are important. Format and placement are also important here and the rules and structure are part of what keeps things from degenerating as badly as they otherwise could. I want Joe to post what he finds. I want Joe to discuss the disease itself. People are also free to examine what is claimed or stated. It is important that these be performed in the correct sections and it is important to observe and comply with the expectations for each section.

Also, from looking at the argumentation style, one should not be dismissive of counterpoints with language such as "silly" and so on. If there is counterevidence to refute an alternative position, please supply it. Otherwise, it at least appears to be an emotional reaction to exposure of a gap. If the idea is to educate and share, please do so. Handwaving while ignoring an opposing point does not help to lend soundness regarding one's position.

Originally Posted by Logan256

I took all three water snakes to the vet's office today, and in doing so I discovered that one of the two previously unaffected WC snakes is now showing skin symptoms as well. I've been trying to disturb them as little as possible since their arrival due to elevated stress levels, so other than routine maintenance, they hadn't been handled since Friday. When I went to bag the adult brown water snake, I found that it's now having what appears to be a very similar issue. I say similar because I've never seen the symptoms on a snake that size, and I'm not sure how the size difference translates in regard to how the bumps appear. My baby brown water snake is bump free at this point following her last shed, and the remaining banded water snake is showing no problems at this time.

My vet examined each snake closely and performed a fecal flotation on the adult brown water snake, which came back negative for parasites. She was unable to get a good enough sample from the other two to test. She performed a skin scrape on the adult brown as well, focusing on the affected areas, with no findings on the slide. She examined the shed skin from the baby brown water snake's last two sheds, but didn't test it today. I was unable to get the biopsy performed as I had wanted, because she was unable to contact Matthew Allender during my visit. She assured me that she would discuss this with him and get back to me on moving forward with that as quickly as possible. In the meantime, she prescribed Griseofulvin Liquid to treat the snakes that were displaying symptoms.

I took several photos that I'll be adding - the adult brown as of today, the baby brown with no bumps at this time, her previous sheds that do show evidence of the bumps, photos taken while in the exam room, and photos of the invoice and prescription. Once we get the biopsy scheduled I'll update that as well. The vet acknowledged that she has never seen symptoms quite like these, but didn't want to speculate on a possible cause at this point.

Now THIS is how a responsible person handles this type of situation. I think getting a fecal test for parasites and investigating other causes rather than simply jumping to conclusions was a very good idea. You did say yours were purchased as captive bred, so the lack of parasites is expected but still good news.

Your posts have been very succinct and descriptive...it's unfortunate the OP didn't handle this matter in the same way as you. If he had I have no doubt that people on this forum would have approached this situation and his claims much differently.

I agree, the bumps do look very similar to what the OP posted, but still very dissimilar from the pictures of SFD shown in the article the OP shared (that I posted pictures from a couple pages back). As another member mentioned, those could be pictures of advanced stages of the disease whereas yours are still in early stages, however given that the OP claimed one of his animals already died it should have been displaying late-stage symptoms as well (IF it actually died from this disease).

I hope you can keep us updated and that it turns out to be nothing, and thank you for treating this issue responsibly. Too bad I can't give more karma to you right now because you earned it

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. I, too, hope my snakes recover Hopefully further testing on my end (as well as the OP's results) will clarify this issue for everyone involved and for those that are following the situation.

Originally Posted by EdwardK

Its already been determined to have a very wide distribution and yes it can do just fine in the environment see ALLENDER, Matthew C., et al. "The natural history, ecology, and epidemiology of Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola and its potential impact on free-ranging snake populations." (2015).

http://wwx.inhs.illinois.edu/files/4...l_Ecol2015.pdf

some comments

Ed

Thank you for providing this citation.