Andrew/Ashley Hager - You Decide

Tim

You screwed them on the website. Pay them the $350 and make it right. If it were me, I'd throw in an extra $100 to apologize for being a bit of a tool on this transaction

Andrew

If you had been paid on the website as agreed, this crap about a partial copyright on the logo would be a non-issue. If you are paid as owed on the website ($350) sign the copyright on the logo over and get on with your life.

Why are these things so easy for an outsider to read and resolve?

John although I respect you incite, the issue with the website is totally the beginning. The problem came in the fact that I was using the logo that Ashley had designed for me as a business card for the logo on the website. That was not what I had payed for I had just payed for the card logo (which was a misunderstanding on my part) and we couldn't come to an agreement on the price for the full copyright on the logo so I had another designer draw one up which is the current design. None of Andrews website design is currently being used except for the black and red colors which I had picked out before the card was designed. I still will be finishing out the 5000 biz card box before ordering more with the new design. I think the mistake in this whole ordeal was that I wasn't easily reach when Andrew needed info and life just got in the way for us both. I believe if we both had this to do over it would be payment up front (or at least a portion) and a physical contract explaining the use of the designed artwork would be top on the priority list. Like I said before I handled things wrong the first time and for that I apologize.

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herpetological

Tim

You screwed them on the website. Pay them the $350 and make it right. If it were me, I'd throw in an extra $100 to apologize for being a bit of a tool on this transaction

Andrew

If you had been paid on the website as agreed, this crap about a partial copyright on the logo would be a non-issue. If you are paid as owed on the website ($350) sign the copyright on the logo over and get on with your life.

Why are these things so easy for an outsider to read and resolve?

Things have been handled about this ordeal. The reason this thread was brought back was to put our side of the story out, fully, for everyone to read. Not walk away and not defend ourselves.

We're not asking for any pay out of this anymore. Things were resolved, and both parties suffered a hit to their reputation because of it. This wasn't meant in a manner to take shots back and forth at each other, or bring a dead topic back to life. Merely a point of interest to explain in detail what happened.

Originally Posted by Kaa22

As I've said Kevin, My phone, a Samsung M520, died on me, so Sprint replaced it. I lost all of my numbers, and I didn't have yours again, didn't have a way to get a hold of you, and I was in the process of going through a large move. I did apologize, and my offer is still on the table to help.

Horse hocky .... if you wanted to contact me... you could have sent me a PM over on the BLBC. Im still there and have been all this time.... Im not that hard to get in touch with. Yes, You may have lost my number due to phone problems... but the phone is not the only way to contact me.

Thanks for the offer... but I'll pass. There is something about how you do business with friends that turns me off.

Originally Posted by Southern Wolf

Horse hocky .... if you wanted to contact me... you could have sent me a PM over on the BLBC. Im still there and have been all this time.... Im not that hard to get in touch with. Yes, You may have lost my number due to phone problems... but the phone is not the only way to contact me.

Thanks for the offer... but I'll pass. There is something about how you do business with friends that turns me off.

Going through a move, from state to state... I wasn't exactly online... but your choice is your choice. I offered to help... That's all I can do.

It's funny because I do commissioned art and illustrations, and follow a forum or two dealing with art commission problems. I find I often cite how business is usually done in the reptile community since, in the artist forums, things tend to fall apart on shipping disputes, which I would say the reptile business community has down pat because it's such a big expense, risk, and important part of the transaction.

And now I'm going to cite what I know of how art commissions are usually done in a reptile community. XD I'm no lawyer but I've read up a lot on these things over the years.

I know both parties feel the problem is relatively wrapped up, if not entirely satisfactorily, but for the sake of anyone else considering these ventures, here's my two cents:

The problem seems to stem from lack of communication, contracts, and knowledge about legal matters on both sides. It is true that copyright is considered to automatically belong with the artist at the moment of creation, and that, unless otherwise specified, the person commissioning art only has rights to the original copy and has no right to reproduce or redistribute the art. It's also true that it can be pretty hard to defend copyright if it is not officially registered, and there is usually no money to be had in a suit unless there are demonstrable damages (such as items sold).

However, this is why logos are usually fairly expensive - because it is standard to include copyright. If a business buys a logo, they usually want to be able to use it on all their goods, and for a small business especially it would be very hard to keep track of royalties.
That said, licensing art for one type of item only is not unheard of. But it would be easy for a commissioner to get confused if it was not made clear ahead of time that the logo could only be used on business cards and nowhere else.

I could go on and on, but what it's going to boil down to is: OP, you were wrong not to pay for the website, and should have had the money socked away since you knew about what they'd be asking for it. It also sounds like you could have been better with communications.
Artists: always ask for some payment up front to avoid getting burned. Also to be proper professionals you should have terms of service (just like a reptile business!) and a contract for commissioners so that everyone knows exactly what they're getting, and if there's a dispute you have paperwork to back your side.
I would honestly say the greater burden is on the artists to make legalities clear since you are the professionals in this area.

From what I see here both sides messed up about equally, probably because both were in somewhat unfamiliar territory and trying to deal with "friends", and hence contracts and TOS were neglected.

Good luck.