Questionnaire for the breeders

How did you get started?
What did you have equipment-wise when you started?
Are you still working on the species, you started with?
What are some of the biggest down falls you've faced in the beginning?
Any advice for those just starting up?
Any other information that you want to share?

Originally Posted by MeadCountyRats

How did you get started?
What did you have equipment-wise when you started?
Are you still working on the species, you started with?
What are some of the biggest down falls you've faced in the beginning?
Any advice for those just starting up?
Any other information that you want to share?

The bulk of this will pertain to chelonians. I will speak on some other reptiles afterwards.

I (and my father) put Testudo pens, box turtle pens, and aquatic turtle pens together using landscape timbers for the barriers when I was a little boy. I had my first turtles (domestically) when I was around five. I found my first tortoise (overseas) when I was around six. I bred box turtles (or, more accurately, they bred for me) a couple years later and the tortoises started not long after. I think common snapping turtles first bred for me when I was in my pre-teen years. Other aquatic turtle species here and there,

Little to nothing. Indoors, heating & lighting elements, tanks, filters, substrates, and that sort of basic stuff. Outdoors, planted pens with lots of hiding areas or sight barrier features for terrestrials and mostly baby pools for aquatics. As I became more advanced, my capital outlay has become more extensive.

Mostly not. I do still work with Hermann's tortoises, but to a far less extensive degree (it is, in my opinion, one of the best if not the best species for hardiness, attractiveness, manageable size, personality, and ease of keeping). I am not working with Russians, Greeks, or marginated tortoises at present. I have not worked with box turtles or snapping turtles in a long while aside from one-offs or rescue-style efforts. I used to work with a lot of species of turtles and now I work with few. I used to work with Testudo species of tortoises exclusively, and now I lightly work with Testudo and mostly work with larger non-brumating species. I have traveled a decent chunk of the planet and have directly observed many species in their natural habitats, too.

I actually had fewer downfalls earlier on relative to now. Maintenance was low due to agreement between species and my climate at the time and because I emphasized outdoor keeping. My animals were not particularly expensive. If something were to happen, it would not have "broken" me financially despite being a child. Nowadays, I deal with more valuable stuff overall compared to in my childhood. An accidental death or some sort of loss is far more financially damaging. Also, since I had transitioned more to species that brought challenges to keeping in what was until recently a colder climate with a legitimate/genuine winter, maintenance for approximately half the year was indoors and very draining for me in terms of my time, emotional energy, and in terms of costs. Were I less stubborn, I could have kept ~90% brumating Testudo species and ~10% tropical species when I lived in MO instead of the other way around. It would have made life easier. On the flipside, certain animals of higher offspring values simply exist on the tropical side of the line, so one has to choose the balance between ease of management and financial return that suits one best.

My advice for someone getting in is to identify what one is seeking to achieve and what are the best ways to achieve it. If one wants to breed for the sake of the experience itself, then I would say to go for ease of care and ease of breeding success with an affordable species one likes on an emotional level. Keep it simple. Keep the pair or group large enough to work and small enough to keep the burden on the keeper low. If one is going for financial return, one should be more shrewd with decisions and should seriously research and observe the market beforehand. Chart out your anticipated costs. Then double them. Do not count on reproduction at any particular time. Seasons get skipped randomly. Consider veterinary care. Determine what is worth getting done versus "calling it". This may or may not be different for a breeder versus a pet owner and it also depends on financial and medical realities. Figure out what you can manage if your main income stream goes in the toilet. Try to avoid things which are hot in the market, but depreciate rapidly. Be careful with dominant traits in the morph markets for various animals. Recessives have a tendency to depreciate slower. Combination morphs are harder to hit the statistical outcomes for. Combination recessive morphs synergize these phenomena. You want what you make to be harder to reproduce if you want to reduce the rate of erosion of the price for it. In a "be where your enemy is not" sort of way, be where your competition is not. Offer a service, quality, or product that differentiates you from the next person if you can. If there is a glut in supply for a particular product, I do not recommend investing heavily in that space. Better to be one of a half-dozen or dozen breeders for something in the entire country than one of hundreds. If you can work in an angle that is polygenic and bloodline-dependent, even better, as you can command a superior price based on nuances on the spectrum of quality that are more difficult for competitors to emulate. Love what you do and what you work with, but recognize going in that what you enjoy may wax and wane with regard to the feeling of enjoyment versus laborious drudgery once you become deeply involved or invested. There are highs and lows.

I also tried my hand at working with ball python morphs and leopard gecko morphs. I personally did not find enjoyment working with the serpents. They were very pretty, but they did not stimulate me. Their market is mostly saturated, so the combo morph and recessive tips I gave earlier apply very strongly here. If I wanted to get into them again, I would probably get either a double/triple recessive 1.1 pair, 1.2 trio, or 1.3 quad and acquire no further and ride it out. For leopard geckos, the market was likewise very deeply saturated. If I got in again, I would work with double+ recessives with an extra polygenic/bloodline-influenced factor involved if dealing with morphs and/or simply work with pure subspecies. It is possible to make money with these things, but I would not expect to do more than break even until established. I would keep projects small and only keep back extremely exceptional offspring if at all once my groups were well-refined. Seek out cost-cutting measures that do not sacrifice quality of care. Work on efficient feeding and cleaning routines to save your time.

Do not follow anyone's dogma. Chart your own course. If you fail to succeed, you cannot go back and pin it on the mouthpiece you may have taken poor advice from. Nobody pays you back for your losses.

By the way, much of what I said above occurs on a spectrum. Not starkly contrasted dichotomies. Many choices will be a balance between multiple factors or some sort of blended decision and some aspects are not mutually exclusive anyway.

You should write a book. Nicely said.

Sent from my LGL33L using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by MeadCountyRats

How did you get started?

My daughter wanted a snake as a pet. We got a king snake. Then we got a ball python. They we learned about morphs, and BCI's, and BRB's, and...

What did you have equipment-wise when you started?

Nothing. Fortunately we researched what we would need long before we needed it, set money aside, and when good quality used equipment came up for sale locally we jumped on it.

Are you still working on the species, you started with?

Yes but have started backing off for 1) my sanity, and 2) time and resources to work with other species.

What are some of the biggest down falls you've faced in the beginning?

Mites.
Disreputable sellers.

Any advice for those just starting up?

Do it for fun not for money.
Best price <> best value.

Any other information that you want to share?

Don't breed if you don't have a good exotics vet available for when things go wrong.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

The bulk of this will pertain to chelonians. I will speak on some other reptiles afterwards.

I (and my father) put Testudo pens, box turtle pens, and aquatic turtle pens together using landscape timbers for the barriers when I was a little boy. I had my first turtles (domestically) when I was around five. I found my first tortoise (overseas) when I was around six. I bred box turtles (or, more accurately, they bred for me) a couple years later and the tortoises started not long after. I think common snapping turtles first bred for me when I was in my pre-teen years. Other aquatic turtle species here and there,

Little to nothing. Indoors, heating & lighting elements, tanks, filters, substrates, and that sort of basic stuff. Outdoors, planted pens with lots of hiding areas or sight barrier features for terrestrials and mostly baby pools for aquatics. As I became more advanced, my capital outlay has become more extensive.

Mostly not. I do still work with Hermann's tortoises, but to a far less extensive degree (it is, in my opinion, one of the best if not the best species for hardiness, attractiveness, manageable size, personality, and ease of keeping). I am not working with Russians, Greeks, or marginated tortoises at present. I have not worked with box turtles or snapping turtles in a long while aside from one-offs or rescue-style efforts. I used to work with a lot of species of turtles and now I work with few. I used to work with Testudo species of tortoises exclusively, and now I lightly work with Testudo and mostly work with larger non-brumating species. I have traveled a decent chunk of the planet and have directly observed many species in their natural habitats, too.

I actually had fewer downfalls earlier on relative to now. Maintenance was low due to agreement between species and my climate at the time and because I emphasized outdoor keeping. My animals were not particularly expensive. If something were to happen, it would not have "broken" me financially despite being a child. Nowadays, I deal with more valuable stuff overall compared to in my childhood. An accidental death or some sort of loss is far more financially damaging. Also, since I had transitioned more to species that brought challenges to keeping in what was until recently a colder climate with a legitimate/genuine winter, maintenance for approximately half the year was indoors and very draining for me in terms of my time, emotional energy, and in terms of costs. Were I less stubborn, I could have kept ~90% brumating Testudo species and ~10% tropical species when I lived in MO instead of the other way around. It would have made life easier. On the flipside, certain animals of higher offspring values simply exist on the tropical side of the line, so one has to choose the balance between ease of management and financial return that suits one best.

My advice for someone getting in is to identify what one is seeking to achieve and what are the best ways to achieve it. If one wants to breed for the sake of the experience itself, then I would say to go for ease of care and ease of breeding success with an affordable species one likes on an emotional level. Keep it simple. Keep the pair or group large enough to work and small enough to keep the burden on the keeper low. If one is going for financial return, one should be more shrewd with decisions and should seriously research and observe the market beforehand. Chart out your anticipated costs. Then double them. Do not count on reproduction at any particular time. Seasons get skipped randomly. Consider veterinary care. Determine what is worth getting done versus "calling it". This may or may not be different for a breeder versus a pet owner and it also depends on financial and medical realities. Figure out what you can manage if your main income stream goes in the toilet. Try to avoid things which are hot in the market, but depreciate rapidly. Be careful with dominant traits in the morph markets for various animals. Recessives have a tendency to depreciate slower. Combination morphs are harder to hit the statistical outcomes for. Combination recessive morphs synergize these phenomena. You want what you make to be harder to reproduce if you want to reduce the rate of erosion of the price for it. In a "be where your enemy is not" sort of way, be where your competition is not. Offer a service, quality, or product that differentiates you from the next person if you can. If there is a glut in supply for a particular product, I do not recommend investing heavily in that space. Better to be one of a half-dozen or dozen breeders for something in the entire country than one of hundreds. If you can work in an angle that is polygenic and bloodline-dependent, even better, as you can command a superior price based on nuances on the spectrum of quality that are more difficult for competitors to emulate. Love what you do and what you work with, but recognize going in that what you enjoy may wax and wane with regard to the feeling of enjoyment versus laborious drudgery once you become deeply involved or invested. There are highs and lows.

I also tried my hand at working with ball python morphs and leopard gecko morphs. I personally did not find enjoyment working with the serpents. They were very pretty, but they did not stimulate me. Their market is mostly saturated, so the combo morph and recessive tips I gave earlier apply very strongly here. If I wanted to get into them again, I would probably get either a double/triple recessive 1.1 pair, 1.2 trio, or 1.3 quad and acquire no further and ride it out. For leopard geckos, the market was likewise very deeply saturated. If I got in again, I would work with double+ recessives with an extra polygenic/bloodline-influenced factor involved if dealing with morphs and/or simply work with pure subspecies. It is possible to make money with these things, but I would not expect to do more than break even until established. I would keep projects small and only keep back extremely exceptional offspring if at all once my groups were well-refined. Seek out cost-cutting measures that do not sacrifice quality of care. Work on efficient feeding and cleaning routines to save your time.

Do not follow anyone's dogma. Chart your own course. If you fail to succeed, you cannot go back and pin it on the mouthpiece you may have taken poor advice from. Nobody pays you back for your losses.

You sir, went above and beyond what I had expected, many thanks!
I second Foster, I would totally buy the book!

I am just at the starting point of buying up any and all cheap equipment that I am able to find, researching the species that I want to work with, weighing the pros and cons, of the species and comparing.

A lot of the reptiles I'd want to work with are underappreciated in the hobby, so I doubt that I'd ever make a profit from any of them.

Originally Posted by MeadCountyRats

How did you get started?
What did you have equipment-wise when you started?
Are you still working on the species, you started with?
What are some of the biggest down falls you've faced in the beginning?
Any advice for those just starting up?
Any other information that you want to share?

1. I was always keeping snakes as pets as a child and in my early teens. Worked in pet stores in mid-teens to late teens. I ended up getting into breeding ball pythons because I always had a facsination with them in my teens. When I left college I was able to afford them so I finally got them.

2. I had built a rack system and incubator ahead of my time. I used herpstats for everything. I figured why spare expense when these items are going to keep my animals alive.

3. Yes. if you mean breeding. I started with ball pythons and still do them. Also expanded into boas.

4. Biggest down fall was trying to do too much and spread myself a little thin. In ball pythons this had to do with wanting too many morphs and my projects ended up suffering for it. If I did it again I would double up my projects. Example, instead of 1.1 hypo mojave I would have bought 1.3 or 2.3.

5. I would recommend the above even when looking at other species. Make sure everything co-exists well for sake of costs and time on the keeper. If you dig colubrids then do colubrids. If you dig boas/pythons then do those. It's easier to work with similar species than it is to say have a brumation room for a couple colubrids and everything else hot for pythons/boas.

Originally Posted by AaronSerio

1. I was always keeping snakes as pets as a child and in my early teens. Worked in pet stores in mid-teens to late teens. I ended up getting into breeding ball pythons because I always had a facsination with them in my teens. When I left college I was able to afford them so I finally got them.

2. I had built a rack system and incubator ahead of my time. I used herpstats for everything. I figured why spare expense when these items are going to keep my animals alive.

3. Yes. if you mean breeding. I started with ball pythons and still do them. Also expanded into boas.

4. Biggest down fall was trying to do too much and spread myself a little thin. In ball pythons this had to do with wanting too many morphs and my projects ended up suffering for it. If I did it again I would double up my projects. Example, instead of 1.1 hypo mojave I would have bought 1.3 or 2.3.

5. I would recommend the above even when looking at other species. Make sure everything co-exists well for sake of costs and time on the keeper. If you dig colubrids then do colubrids. If you dig boas/pythons then do those. It's easier to work with similar species than it is to say have a brumation room for a couple colubrids and everything else hot for pythons/boas.

While number 5's advice isn't exactly what I wanted to hear, it's definitely much appreciated, as it's something I need to do some serious planning for, as my interests do split between rear fanged, and specific boa species.

How did you get started?
What did you have equipment-wise when you started?
Are you still working on the species, you started with?
What are some of the biggest down falls you've faced in the beginning?
Any advice for those just starting up?
Any other information that you want to share?


friend bought a snake from a pet store locally when i was in high school. I fell in love with reptiles after visiting this pet store weekly for a long time and purchased a pair of BCI boas (very very light pastels.) this was 12 years ago

when I started I used an aquarium with heat pad but before long I had full rack systems and caging

I ended up working with the whole spectrum of reptiles much to my demise, I was overwhelmed. I got out for years after biting off more than I could comfortably chew and putting myself in a position where I asked for help and partnered with some less than reliable people... I now have 2 boas I just purchased this week (one more I'm finalizing on today) and that will be it for a year for me keeping it very very small these days


biggest down falls = people. bad sellers and bad people. trust no one, verify everything, care for your animals with your own hands and see them with your own eyes every day, if you can't do those things don't keep reptiles.

oh and best advice aside from the last paragraph ^

work with what you like, never buy something because of the $$$ pay out. only work with a species that you love and would be happy keeping a select normal of that species. This is the reason I'll never own a ball python again and will only keep boas.