BIG can o worms!!! - Robert Bruce

Jeff,
Thanks for your reply. I think we agree to some degree. My apologies to Craig, and Steve. My comments were not necessarily aimed at them.

I think the lack of reply from him, coupled with me being pushed outside looking in, may have added fuel to my fire! And the fact that obviously intelligent people seem to be falling for it, really cranks my tail! I think that as with all things, it is imperative to have both the yin and yang represented. But at kingsnake, they only allow one or the other. And I know that there are some of those active members, who actively work to keep everyone who may be contrary, out of their conversations. Any time there is any controversy whatsoever, some of those people go running to the powers that be there and cry a river about it. And the powers that be have selected their favorites to keep, and their undesirables to keep out. Myself being a member of the later. And that ain't right!

The severity or depth to which he is willing to sink with this thing may or may not be too far. Maybe it is just a little line breeding to bring out some desired traits. Maybe it is no big deal. But I think ANY line breeding with such an obviously segregated population is a bad idea. And even if it's not,...can we really afford to find out???? Do we really want to go down that road???? Maybe it won't be a big deal,...but what if it is???? We won't be able to fix it. How many new specimens of ball python, and Burmese python arrive from the wild, and from overseas farms into the U.S. every day? Hundreds, maybe thousands. How many wild indigos make it into the U.S. captive gene pool? Maybe a couple each year? I don't think we have enough to sustain a healthy gene pool now, let alone if we start line breeding. What we need, is to mix it up.

Now ask yourself this. What does someone with the worlds largest private collection of drymarchon couperi, who makes his living from the sale of offspring from that collection, have to gain by producing couperi that are more distinct and more desirable to the pet trade??? MONEY,,,,and lots of it. Period. That's his angle, and that's why I'm so fired up. I'd be willing to bet that he is working to create some kind of designer morph right now.

I know this guy is your friend. And I know you are one of those people who value friendship very much. And I know that you try very hard to get along with everyone. And you try not to ruffle anyone's feathers. And I think you demonstrate a HUGE amount of patience with ALL of us, {{myself included}}. And I recognize the importance of such diplomacy within the realm of drymarchon couperi. And I know that without your help, I would not have enjoyed the success that I have found. And for all of that, I do respect, and admire you. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. But somehow I suspect that deep down in your heart you know that this guy is a huge loose cannon. And I believe that you would rather use diplomacy, and friendship to influence him into doing the right thing. And I admit that you are the better man than I for doing so. And I do not wish to loose your friendship. But,....I don't think he cares. I don't think you can influence him to the degree necessary to protect the couperi captive gene pool. And I think that with a collection of that size, he is in a position to do great harm to the captive gene pool. Therefore I am considering taking other action to either steer him in the right direction, or relieve him of the burden of his collection all together. I'm not sure what action that could be, but, rest assured, I am looking at it very closely.

Everything that he does with regards to husbandry and breeding practices, as far as I'm concerned, points to profit. I have seen no evidence of caring for his collection, or for the captive gene pool, or for the wild population, or for what happens to the genetics of the collections of other breeders, whatsoever. I only see evidence of greed, and the use of "science" to rationalize that greed. If this were a species that was not in such trouble, and a species that could easily be bolstered with wild DNA, I would not have anything to say, and I would simply mind my own business.

I just can't sit still for this. Knowing what I know about his husbandry practices is bad enough. And I have done nothing to try and force him to change his ways along those lines. That mess, I have had to tolerate, and let go. But this has the potential to effect us all, and to effect the captive gene pool in a severely negative, and quite possibly, an irreversible way.

We need diversity. Not line breeding, or inbreeding. Selective breeding of robust, healthy individuals of absolute minimal relation to one another, and a nation wide cooperative effort to do so is what we need. New, wild DNA is what we need. Great care of what we do and how we do it, is what we need. A cohesive unit of dedicated breeders, who strive to do the right thing is what we need. Doing everything as right as humanly possible is what we need. There is no room for greed here. There is no room for mistakes here. There is no room for an "oh well" attitude here. If this gets screwed up, we won't be able to fix it. It may be screwed up already! But how far are we willing to let it go? At what point do we draw the line? I just don't have any faith whatsoever in this guy, or that he will do what is best for the captive population.

I am sorry if I offend anyone. But I have to call'm like I see'm. If I didn't,...I wouldn't be me. I'd be somebody else. Which is why I have been 86ed from the other forum.
T.

Tony,

I consider you a good friend and I absolutely love the energy and passion you bring to the table anytime a "Dry" topic comes up and I enjoy our conversations equally well.
Personally, I would like to see everyone get along and respect one another’s opinions and differences, regardless of how diverse such might be. I have said all along, one component I enjoy about the captive husbandry of herpetofauna, especially Drymarchon spp., is there is no single correct way to do things and the more of us doing things differently and incurring success with such means there is simply more out there for us to discover. I further believe we are only scratching the surface in regards to our understanding of the requirements to successfully produce Drymarchon spp. in captivity and the more folks doing different things successfully only adds to the coffers of our knowledge.
You may not realize it, but Robert has improved his husbandry methods and continues to do so. Also, while Robert does seek some profit from his group, I know that his financial and time investment regarding D. couperi are far greater than what he has yet to return and he has been working with them for well over ten years. The fact that he holds back over half of what he produces is indicative his reasons are not solely for financial gain. Personally, I have no qualms with anyone attempting to profit from the captive husbandry of herpetofauna, it beats raping the wild, and I am certainly a proponent for the free market system and the possibilities associated with such. However, I really do not believe anyone can make a substantial profit or even a comfortable living from the captive husbandry of Drys, as the genus is still obscure within the hobby and considered too high maintenance by many of those in the know.
As for inbreeding and the genetic ramifications of such, there are good arguments to be found on both sides and I know Robert realizes the result of what a high level of line breeding and repetitive inbreeding will have upon his own collection and I do not believe he would do anything to jeopardize such. I further believe he sees some real benefit to both the species in captivity and those wishing to acquire such, in regards to the breeding model he is presenting, as he has indicated he would like to produce D. couperi that are phenotypically and behaviorally distinguishable from than their wild cousins through selective breeding and outcrossing, to the point where CB animals would be readily distinguishable enough from wild specimens, so much that one might be able to forego USF&W permits when dealing with such. While it is a lofty goal, as federal protective status does not tend to change when dealing with specimens harboring unique phenotypic traits, many state ordinances do. One such instance can be found with Florida’s P. m mugitus, as the state is quite protective of the snake, unless it harbors the phenotypic trait of amelanism.
Personally, I believe too much time has been invested with this topic, time I need to be spending with my collection, so I will refrain from saying anything further, unless new, beneficial or adverse evidence arises…

Best regards,

Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks again. I feel the same. I'd love to see us all get along, and respect each others opinions too. But when the "clique" kicked me out, and refused to come swim in this pond, they demonstrated a total lack of respect for mine,... so I find it difficult, if not impossible to have any respect for their opinions. Especially when they appear to support the idea that inbreeding couperi somehow has virtue. And they continue to support a forum which demonstrates very strange, {to say the least}, censorship practices, and discriminatory, and predudicial rule enforcement.

We certainly do agree about some things. One such thing, is that there is much more that we do not know about propagating indigos, than what we do know. All the more reason for caution. And all the more reason for concern when we see someone post a topic like "The Virtues of Inbreeding". Especially from someone who has a history of poor husbandry choices.,...in my opinion. And along those lines,...if he has made improvements, I applaud his efforts!!! And I invite him to come here and share with us, what those changes are.

I also have no qualms with anyone attempting to profit from breeding couperi. I'm trying to make a buck too! I have to pay the feed bill somehow! LoL. I only get concerned when it looks like profit is the only motive. And it looks like that motive is about to cause harm to the captive gene pool, and possibly already has. And it looks like he might convince others to follow in his footsteps. I get doublely concerned when I find this out, a year down the road after purchasing one of his snakes! I think that someone COULD make a profitable living from breeding couperi IF they had a huge collection, like he does, and they started churning out some type of high dollar indigo morphmutt for the pet trade. And it still looks to me like that is what he would like to do. And I do not think we should have a line of indigos that are "phenotypically, and or behaviorally distinguishable from their wild cousins". At least,...no more than what we have now. I think every effort should be made to move in the opposite direction! I think instead of finding some way to get around the federal permit system, and , or state law, we should change the system and the law, ...or eliminate it all together! Don't change the snakes,...change the law and change the system!!! PLEASE!

As for time spent on this topic,...I agree. I have poop to clean, and snakes to feed too! But I am not the one who opened this can of worms. I'm just responding to it the only way I can. I'm just trying to provide the other side of the argument. It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. Give me a call when you have time. We're about due for a chat.
T.

Each time you post something like that, I see it. And each time I see it, I post a rebuttal right here, where it is safe from the forum Nazis over there. Contrary to popular belief, I don't hate you. I just think it sucks that I am excluded from posting over there, and you refuse to come over here. And we all know that what you are talking about is wrong. You included. You can use all those fancy scientific terms, and you can flex your mighty vocabulary all day long. And you can baffle most folks with all that stuff. But in the end, it still adds up to the same thing. Finding ways to rationalize, and justify poor husbandry and breeding practices with an endangered species. And THAT, my friend is WRONG. I know it, they know it, and you know it. So please don't do it.

Oh,...and for those of you who have been pointing out the flaws in his logic over there,...kudos, and thanks! We can't allow that type of thinking to take hold. Each time he posts a new rationalization, it must be shot down. Stay on him, or others may actually start doing what he is talking about.

What we need in the indigo captive gene pool is diversity, and new blood. Not inbreeding. Period. We can not screw this up, and we can not allow each other to screw this up.
T.

Who is this WE you speak of so freely?

Unless I am mistaken, this is still AMERICA, land of the FREE and home of the young republicans and if he wants to breed brother to sister til the cows come home, you are entitled to your opinion BUT you are not entitled to put YOUR beliefs in a paramount postion.

I am also guessing, since you did not contact me this year, that I will be recieving more babies from you next year.

You really need to take a step back Tony. You will marching goose-step soon if you keep on the path you're on.

While your arguments do have merit and validity, it is NOT your place to TELL anyone what he can and can't do.

I REALLY like the snakes I got from you but I REALLY don't like the way you voice your opinion as if yours and yours alone is the only way Indigoes should be bred.

Wes,
It's about time someone grew a pair.

"We" is the captive gene pool, and those of us who are responsible for it's well being. And all of us, Robert, you, and I, are in that group. We are the captive breeders of the eastern indigo. Perhaps I should not speak for others when I say we. But I really do believe that most of us, deep down inside, do know that inbreeding of indigos is wrong. If you do not agree, then you are probably not a member of that "we".

So do you think that inbreeding indigos is a good thing? Do you think it will ever do anything beneficial for the captive gene pool? Would you like to see morphmutt designer indigos? Would you like to see government biologists and government officials be even less supportive of what "WE" do? Wouldn't you like to have some say so in what is available, and what is not? Wouldn't you like to know before hand if someone had sold you an inbred indigo? I sure wish I had known! Perhaps that has something to do with my contempt.

I need to take a step back or I will be marching goose step???? When I was in the Army, they never taught us that one. Sounds like a threat to me though. If it is, I will say this. Threats do not work on me. If met with physical violence, I may get knocked down. But unless I'm dead, I'm not done. And if someone would like to sue me,...go right ahead. Get in line with everyone else.

And no you won't be buying anymore snakes from me, unless you pick them up. My sales will be in state, at shows from now on. More fun, and less hassle. Not to mention the procrastination and broken promises of prospective buyers.

Sorry you don't like the way I voice my opinion. Maybe I should just shut my mouth and say nothing. Yeah right. This is something which is important. Very important. This is something, which if it gets screwed up, "we" won't be able to fix it. This is something which eventually effects the entire captive gene pool. That means it effects your indigos, my indigos, and everyone Else's. We are not just talking about Bob and his collection. Whatever he does will eventually end up at your house and mine. And I don't know about you, but I am working very hard to protect the captive gene pool and restore it to more closely resemble the indigo as it was created. And it was created by someone much smarter than any of us. If we pollute this gene pool any more than it already is, we may never ever be able to fix it. And it makes me angry to know that someone is working against that effort!

If you do not like the way I speak my mind, then perhaps the concept of freedom is lost on you. I could really get on a soap box with that subject as well, but not today. If you like censorship, and sucking up, then perhaps you should go hang with Bob. See how long it takes to get kicked out of there the first time you disagree. We could not have a conversation like this over there. That is precisely why I am here, and exactly why this forum exists. When I got kicked out of there, I came here, and I started this forum. I started it so folks could speak out without worry of being censored, or kicked out. {Within reason} Now we can have a flame fest if you want, but I really don't have time for that. However, I will continue to oppose the inbreeding of the eastern indigo snake. And I will continue to post, and voice that opinion. And I will not apologize for it. And if someone, ...me included,... gets their feelings hurt, "we" will get over it. The importance of our "feelings" are minimal when compared to the importance of doing the right thing with the indigo captive gene pool. And if they kick me out of this place too, I'll just go start my own website. Either way, I will voice my opinion as long as I live. And you are welcome to do the same.

As far as putting my beliefs in a paramount position,...I have not imposed any new legislation, or controls over his collection, or anyone else's. I can't. I think "we" are all smart enough to know what the right thing is. But if someone does not speak up loud and clear, perhaps fewer of us will actually do the right thing. And more of us will go down the wrong road. And THAT is what scares me.
T.

Obviously you are RABIDLY passionate about your views. Just as obviously they are YOUR views. If you want to prohibit all inbreeding of your animals that is fine. To tell someone else they CAN'T then you step into the loss of that freedom you laud when it involves your own. No one said to shut up, no said you can't state your view. You are attempting to force your view on everyone involved. If he has the largest collection of all, then he most likely worked his butt off to get there. He must be doing something right to get them there.
Myself I LIKE morphs. I LIKE my albinos. No, they are not just like the wild ball python, or whatever species you wish to compare. Morphmutt? It is a gene found in the wild, that is refined by breeding like to like. I have no intention of turning my ball pythons loose in the wild, as no one should who is captive breeding. But if you want a population of exact wild type, then kudos to you! I applaud your determination and drive, and especially your passion in your cause. Just stop trying to say your way is the only way. After all, all breeds of dog are technically "morphmutts" by your determination of that term. Perhaps we should outlaw those? Maybe we should go take away all of his indigos and give them to others to breed? No, I think not. You have gone to the extreme with every single argument. When you bought your snake, you were happy. Just because he advocates line-breeding(which is a form of in-breeding) that doesn't mean suddenly your snake is a poor-gened inbred retarded speciman. Is it healthy?
And just because someone states that YOU are being a bit overbearing with your rants, doesn't in any way state that they want you to shut up about the subject, nor that you are being threatened with loss of your freedom. Being told that "You need to take a step back or you will be walking goosestep" in no way is any physical threat to you. It is a comment that you are getting to the point of fanatical narrow-minded dictator-like mentality. You know, like Hitler? Someone obcessed with purity of blood and insistant on getting his way no matter what the rest of the world thought. And before you go there, I am in no way calling you a Nazi. I am calling you egotistical. They used the term goosestep. If this is the sort of posts you made over there, I now know why they booted you. I just joined this forum, but I hope that this is not indicative of the common personality.
As far as money, you waffle. You rant that he wants to make money, then admit you do, and that you have no problem with it. But if HE makes money, then he is only about the All-mighty dollar. If YOU make money you are just trying to make a buck. Double standard? Hmmm.
Again,I'm new to this forum, but not new to the world. I hope to find more broadminded people to talk with.
Wolfy-hound

You know I have to tell you... From a long time snake keeper and lover of the animals who has always taken the more ethical path I really am starting to get turned off to this pattern I see among dry keepers!! I've yet to see Robert step up to the plate and speak and I'm starting to think that maybe Jeff is his alter ego and he's ALWAYS deffending him, even his actions that have none... Since starting on my quest to purchase Indigos 3 years ago I have spoken with MANY people... Doug Taylor being a GREAT guy and a joy to deal with.. I've also spoken with one total 100% arse hole, Robert Bruce... I've talked with maybe 4 other people that said he was the same way with them.. There are many great breeders in the business that just have zero people skills and clearly Robert is one of them...

I guess my reason for this post is so you know to an outsider what you all look like... Drys are amazing snakes that haven't made it to the main stream cause they shit a lot, arn't as easy to breed as many snakes and don't thank god have any morphs yet.. I think that's the attraction to me but I'm finding out why so many dry breeders want nothing to do with the majority at the same time.. I've never seen another snake with SO many closit breeders!! I for one would just boycott Robert and let him sit on his empire of Easterns in his lonesome....

THERE! See! Legitimate complaint against someone for poor customer service! A conflict with the personality. No where does he say that he can't breed his snakes the way he wants, just that he won't buy from him. Kudos. I've dealt with people who have ripped me off in the ball python market, and who have been totally assinine in the dealings. I don't buy from them, and I will tell others not to buy from them also. When enough people don't buy from that person, then they will change, but if it is a minoirty, then YOU don't have to deal with the pita. Which is the point. You don't like someone's breeding practice, then don't deal with them.
And for the record, I ADORE the wild eastern indigo, and have been fortunate to see them in the wild. I still say if he wants to breed morphs he should do so. We also need to work on conservation of habitat so these snakes won't disappear in the wild. And for the record, something I did not address, I believe that the reintroductionof the red wold in the mideatern US and the reintroduction of wolves in certain areas has gone well. As well as the Onyx(I think that is the one, the arabian antelope) that has been successfully reintroduced to the wild and now has a wild population. Does that mean that indigos can be released successfully to build wild populations? I dunno, I'm not a field herpotoligist specializing in indigos and their habitat. Are you? I may have to contact the UF people and see if anyone is working on programs like that.
Wolfy

Tony Tony Tony, IF I were to threaten you, you would not be asking if it was a threat.

I like you, dumbass.

I'm trying to help you see how you appear to A LOT of other people.

I also will take the time when someone uses that word "WE" and indirectly include me in that "WE" without my knowing or acknowleding my consent for such inclusion.

It's none of anyones business what any of us do with our snakes.

I do understand the freedom we have here to voice our opinions and that is what I too am doing.

I'm actually trying to be of assistance to you here Tony, not in your quest to force robert to do things as you think they should, but in your deliverance of that quest.

You're turning people off in your presentation.

That's it.

Below is one of the girls I got from you last year. She is more pig than Indigo. Her sister is quite a bit smaller as she has never had the same appetite, but both are in great shape.