High School Grant, $3000...HELP!!

<img src="C:\Documents and Settings\Ferraiolo\Desktop\cage.jpg">
Hello. I have attached a picture of our cages. We have two. Thank you Cages By Design. One like you see, dry, the other more moist but not "rainforest".

The dry one I and my students would like to set up a "world" like a powerful being but not a God with a capital "G". We want to play god, little "g". My idea for the dry cage which is 4' long, 4' tall and 2' wide. Some dry type geckos in the lower layer, a few rose hair tarantulas, some collareds or the like up high and a pair of juvenile Greek or Russian tortoises or box turtles down below. As the animals get too large, we would adopt them out to individuals or trade for smaller of the same species. Any babies would be a benefit and sold or donated but generating income is very low on our priority list.

The other would hold arboreal geckos like cresteds or Giant Halmaheras etc, maybe a pair of Jackson chameleons, maybe some larger anoles, some millipedes, mantids, the kids would like a pair of Frilleds also.

These lists are possibilities. We would really like to make 2 ecosystems that closely resemble normal environments . So compatability is a must or a strong desire.

We would love advice on what animals would work in these environments and how I can make the environments better. Thank you, Vinny Ferraiolo

ANY IDEAS?????

Vinny Ferraiolo
Thomas Dale High School
Biology Teacher
http://www.sciline.net
(804) 768-6245

Mixing species in captivity is never a good idea. You don't have to worry about any offspring because if you mix animals like you're thinking, you will never, ever have any babies. They will stress each other out. You also have no idea what diseases can be spread when different species from totally different parts of the world are mixed together. Chameleons stress easily and the Jackson's will certainly suffer under these conditions.

You cannot put two tarantulas in the same enclsure or they will fight. I know your next question. I've heard it 20X when I tell people that they can't mix Ts: "You have to put two together when you breed them so why can't I keep two together?" Because in the wild after a male breeds the female she EATS him. Two females will fight. In the wild the loser simply runs away. But in an enclosure it can't run away so it will be killed.

The heat the collard lizards need would probably kill the tarantulas.

The only thing I've done is mix several species of geckos such as golden geckos, white line geckos and Bibron's geckos together.

Why not use one enclosure for a pair of frilled dragons and one enclsure for geckos or torts (Greek & Russian tortoises will not outgrow that enclosure, they stay small) or a pair of Jackson's, etc.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. But, like you already are, do your homework on whatever species you decide to go with or the animals will suffer and will die because of it.

Originally Posted by vferra7777

...As the animals get too large, we would adopt them out to individuals or trade for smaller of the same species. Any babies would be a benefit and sold or donated but generating income is very low on our priority list.

This may not be as easy as it sounds, whom would you adopt them out to? Whom would you trade with? For what? Reptiles are not as dispensable as you may think. Please, what ever reptiles you take in, keep them as long as they will live. Teach your students responsibility and accountability.

I agree with the adopting out part, please let me tell you from experience, I foster for a rescue on occasion when I have the space in quaranteen available to take them in but as most cases they are hear with me for quite some time before we can get them adopted out to new homes, it really is not that easy of a task most of the time. I also keep T's myself and that is very true you defiantly can not put 2 in the same enclosure(well you can but expect one to be gone very soon if not easily both) and that's really not a cool thing to do to them at all. I really stay away from mixing species at all costs, it is just alto safer. Do your homework and enjoy what you do end up with. Shanell Sepulveda

Thanx for all the input. My students are researching the systems and have narrowed it down to a dry environment with; 1 Tarantula, size corresponding to other animals in its "world", leopard geckos, with a heat pad in their section of the "world", collared lizards that should climb and bask, baby sulcatas and a pair of mice (adam and Eve).

The more moist world; a pair of frilleds (they really fell in love ith them), pair of Jackson chameleons, pair of crested geckos up high and a stripe knee tarantula. I would also like to put a box turtle in here if possible. NO SNAKES! Public schools are very funny about snakes. I think I can alter light and heat to make it all work.

We found a local pet store (Off The Ark Exotic Pets) that will buy/trade any animals that either outgrow our world or just don't fit. We also found Xtreme Reptiles in Miami that sells everything we need and they have also been FANTASTIC throughout all of this by answering questions and just being very nice. Thanx Alfredo and Pat.

How does this sound? We will do our best to make all the animals happy and healthy, but I do fear that some will have problems. My main concern now is how they may stress from just so many students being close. After a few weeks, they kids will adjust to the cages but will te animals adjust to the stress of noise, smell etc.?

I will start posting our progress on sciline.net in a new section and the first page under Biology. Please feel free to check on us and offer feedback. they gave us alot of money and freedom so i don't want to mess it up

Vinny Ferraiolo
Thomas Dale High School (Home of Rudi Johnson from the Bengals)
(804) 539-8673

Mice with a tarantula? That does not sound good. The cages you have pictures of, that does not look like a lot of room for any tortoise/turtles. I have box turtles, they like to do a lot of walking.

Maybe I have this all wrong, are installing shelves in the cages to seperate each species so they have their own space? You mention a lower and upper side to these cages.

Ya you put mice in with anything and you might as well kiss everything else in there good bye. Those cages are not suited to be able to handle what you are wanting to do. You can not get a heat gradient needed for all those different species. You do not need to worry so much about all the commotion of the passers bye but you need to really worry about what you are wanting to mix together. Frilleds are runners and they need more length space if I am not mistaken, someone correct me if I am wrong please? The tortoises defiantly need more space. Those cages do really well for Chameleons, geckos, lizards. By the way if you put a baby Tarantula in such a large cage it will parish as well. Give your students a list and have them pick (2) from it one for each cage and save the reptiles from a world that they should not be forced to be in where they will stress and parish from being where they do not belong with the others you want to mix them with. Shanell.

I know it sounds bad, but the grant is worded for us to create a synthetic "world" where populations co-exist somehow. I have gone over it and made a small world. If I buy animals that are of proper size, some adults, some babies and some juvies, the size will work. If I re-wire some things and alter the cages as is, I believe i can the make the environment work. If there is a problem with the animals, I will do my best to get them out of there. I have 4 or 5 other cages already set up for that situation.

It boils down to we don't get the money if we don't follow through on the wording of the grant. Besides the cages and animals, the grant aso paid or technology and supplies that I could get under normal budgetary options. We got CBLs, probes, technical and non technical supplies. It makes a huge difference. All I have to do to keep it all is follow through on the wording and make it work as long as possible. Ideally i would like to have 3 different taxa classes of animals together. If that is not possible i will rework it, but bottom line is MORE THAN TWO different classes MUST be coexisting in our biosphere (cube) or NO MONEY!!

Can we pull it off somehow with different classes ie, amphibia, mammalia, reptilia, arachnia etc.

I desperately need advice even if you think it is a long shot. There must be at least two of the above classes that can co-exist together in some form of their respective life cycles for at least 9 months.

I really do not think you are paying much attention to what has been posted. Certain animals you want will not work together. Even if it is a long shot, we would rather see the animals in a proper safe environment. Science is not "god", it is a little boy using a magnifying glass on ants.

If that is not possible i will rework it, but bottom line is MORE THAN TWO different classes MUST be coexisting in our biosphere (cube) or NO MONEY!!

So....bottom line......you care more about getting the money than the well-being of the animals you intend to put into this "world"???

Re-read what has been written here already. Does it really count as these animals co-existing if they either die or are killed and eaten soon after you create this "world"???

*shakes head sadly and walks away*