High School Grant, $3000...HELP!!

We saw some more post today. I cannot give out my students names, but my home phone is 804.763.4443. I am intersted to see who will call and who will not. We have read the latter posts and understand what you are trying to say, but look at it from our point of view, most of us are new at this and we know there will be problems, ever see the first zoos, and we will try our best to observe them but do animals NOT die everyday in the wild or get eaten by other predators? That is a true world. A utopian society has no social, economic or predatory worries which by definition is impossible on this planet. It is hard to watch death as it easy fulfilling to watch birth but both need each other to exist. Would you teach of God but not the devil?

For anyone curious, we have received a few grants before for science related projects. Here is one from a Biology grant in 1999 if you would like to check it out? The project ended a year early because of a construction problem when all the power was cut off during Chritsmas break. Over 60 eggs were destroyed as were 75% of our breeders and hold backs. Accidents happen and animals die. We were all very upset over it but accidents happen.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mcdaward/

So, again, you are back to the acknowledgement that animals are going to die. The part that disturbs me is that you just accept it when, with a bit of effort and forethought, it can be avoided. And you speak of teaching god and the devil (...ahem...) you have been saying public school thoughout the thread...THAT is a good way to get yourself into trouble. There will be no talk of God in public schools, that has been made very clear. I PM's you with an offer of assistance, I feel no need to call. If you want it, I am a few keystrokes away.

Originally Posted by vferra7777

The project ended a year early because of a construction problem when all the power was cut off during Chritsmas break. Over 60 eggs were destroyed as were 75% of our breeders and hold backs. Accidents happen and animals die. We were all very upset over it but accidents happen.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? neither you, nor anybody involved, had any inkling that the power would be cut during the break??? Nobody thought to verify this, or make accomodations? And you have the nerve to post this information and just shrug it off, after what has been said on this forum so far? I may have to reconsider my offer...your cavalier attitude both enrages and disgusts me.

It was bad, but what would you me do? Quit my job? End a program that really got many students excited and into their school and educational opportunities? Kill myself? Apologize to all humanity and high school age studenst everywhrere? Live with Jane Goodall and devote my life to that which i destroyed? So few of you are actually a source of knowledge let alone inspiration that we all think fauna is completely worthless. And those that spend all their day cruising this site to spit out their condemnation on amatueurs you have the pity of 16 year olds. just like you probably were in high school. Those that replied that way we say a very sarcastic, "thank you!"

Well I can see that you would really like to have that grant, and you have already accepted animals will die. So, in light of this, here are 3 animals that work great together if they are housed appropriately and fed accordingly. Baby red ear sliders, fire bellied toads, and fire bellied newts. You should be able to get 1" sliders since it is for education.
This has worked for me and have not had any problems, but if they are hungry , the toads will try and eat the newts, so if you keep them fed they should be fine.
Also, a VERY important thing is to make sure they are all reletively the same size, it would be pretty bad if they werent.
I know you said NO snakes, but green tree snakes and anoles also get along quite well, I never had any problems with them. I always fed them on time and on a schedule, so if you do the same, you shouldnt have any problems.

Spare me the theatrics. Quite simply, a bit of forethought would have prevented that entire scenario. IF you are serious about all of this, you are a sorry excuse for biology teacher...and I thank the powers that be that I was exposed to better.
(picture the door slamming as I exit this thread)

This is pathetic, you really see animals as nothing more than something to study. The thought that you are willing to state that animals die everyday in the wild, that is what I would expect from someone who does not care about the health and well being of animals. Your little world is not to sentence the animals to death (as that is how you see the wild anyway). You do not care if they die.

You called us teenagers, yet you are acting like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum. Your sacrasim and childish display of disgust over us wanting the best for animals is pretty low.This is what I wrote before I shortened my last post.

Originally Posted by Junkyard

You are not reading this anymore, so I will reply for others to read.

Funding in school is tough, yes we are aware of that as many of us here have dealt with under funded schools and the difficulties that can happen.

Are you aware that some animals can carry a disease without any problems to them, but introduce a different species of animal, than the two may pose a health risk to each other.

We are trying to teach you and your students about proper care and responsibilities involved with owning animals. Apparently, you could care less.

Did you not read what we posted?

There is nothing negative said behind your back, we have been upfront and honest the entire time. Jennifer, do not take it so personally, life will only get worse for you if that is how you take constructive critism.

If you really want help, than go speak to someone who specializes in importing wild caught animals and poaching. I am sure they will have a few ideas for you.

Many here specialize in captive breeding of animals, they do not want all their hard work going straight down the drain over a high school project that imposes a risk to the animals they spent so much time and money on.

Liar!

Of course the stores have been helpful, they want your money. They see you as a potential sale.

If this has been worthless than you are not learning from us, are you? I truly hope at least one of your students is smart enough to see the problem that we see.

No, it is not impossible to keep different classes of animals together, but it is not a bright idea also. Think about it, do you want to be stuck in a cage with a buffalo, alligator, and a tarantuala that you cannot get away from.

Thank you. Remember who came here to ask for advice and then became upset over it. Please do not come here and throw a fit over your new knowledge. If you are truly upset all I can say "the truth hurts, doesn't it?"

You want a real world project, then provide each of your students with a reptile, amphibian, insect, or mammal and have them properly take care of it. Have them learn about the proper care and husbandry, locality of the animals. The anatomy, reproductive cycle, facts, and myths that go along with each animal.

To place different animals together so you can play "god" is sad.

Harold wait up!! I am running through the door with you.

At least animals in the wild have a chance to escape death, they aren't locked in an enclosure while people wait for them to die.

I'd like to know what the heck you hope to accomplish by this God-play besides teaching the kids that these poor animals are expendable for our amusement. My teachers and mentors always taught of the VALUE of life.

Michael, PLEASE hold that door for me too....

Well, since the door was not allowed to slam, I took another look in...and opted to add a few thoughts. You referenced some of the problems zoos had when initiating their displays, and you are correct - animals died. But in most cases, that was before the accumulation of knowledge which we now have available to us. Why do you feel compelled to re-invent the wheel? to re-make all the same mistakes that that others made when there is simply no need to? Take advantage of the progress that has been made in this field over the past 25 years. The information is out there.
You want your students to be excited? to be interested in a project? Try one that doesn't set them up for failure. How about creating a habitat with creatures that actually LIVE? Think about the difference...working with a project in which all the animals die because you did something stupid that they could not recover from vs working with one in which the animals thrive and prosper...live out the school year, and maybe even go home with some of the students at the completion of the project (lest they be baked when they turn off the AC during the summer, or die because there was nobody to feed/clean them).
And as to the terms of the grant...I'll admit that I am somewhat inexperienced in that area, but don't you have some say in that? Usually (at least with the ones I have been exposed to), grant monies are available, and awarded to people/groups based on their proposals. I would be willing to bet that you didn't include your nonsense about inevitable deaths in yours. AND, just in case the terms of this particular grant were spelled out by somebody that just didn't know any better, how about formulating an educated counter proposal...illustrating the problems inherent in the current terms, and offering viable alternatives. I mean, if you were serious when you said that

killing even arachnids is not something you can do in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

, I would think that the emphasis should be on keeping the animals alive. Certainly. the benefactors of this grant would agree.
Now, I think I will once again take my leave

Originally Posted by vferra7777

We do not want to kill any animals especially in a public school setting that will be heavily scrutinized by those that "dish" out the money

If you mix any of the species that you are contemplating mixing, then YOU WILL KILL ANIMALS. What part of that are you not comprehending?

Originally Posted by vferra7777

We would like advice that would help us do the project the right way. All we are asking is that someone out there has been able to keep at least 2 different animals together in the same cage/environment for a time without stress or death.

I believe I've already answered that question but I'll copy & paste it for you again since you seem to have trouble with reading and comprehension: The only thing I've done is mix several species of geckos such as golden geckos, white line geckos and Bibron's geckos together.

Originally Posted by vferra7777

Mr ferraiolo, our teacher, said this along with kingsnake.com would be the place to go for expert advice. The people on here are really no different than are fellow 16 year old classmates. You ask for help and all you get are people talking about you behind your back (you know some of you are) and NEGATIVE criticism that accomplishes nothing. My name is Jennifer and I honestly cannot believe professional adults have written what they have written when we just asked for help.

Exactly how is giving the advice that you've been given "talking about you behind your back"?

I fail to see the negative criticism and the only reason it's accomplishing nothing is because you fail to believe what experienced herpers already know. MIXING SPECIES IS BAD, BAD, BAD and only asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by vferra7777

I have been a high school teacher for 10 years and I have never had any group of students behave the way you all have behaved when we just asked for advice. You mean to tell me it is impossible to keep any two different classes (amphibia, reptilia, insecta) in the same ecosystem without one perishing. MOST of you have been completely worthless and a terrible embarassment to us. We will continue on our own and figure it out locally through Off The Ark and Noah's pet stores. THEY actually made an effort to give positive contructive advice.

How in the world have "we" behaved badly? Just because you didn't get the answer that you wanted you're crying like a little baby. The informaiton you've gotten is not worthless! Let's see, Off The Ark and Noah's Pet stores are what??? in the business to SELL ANIMALS. If some of your animals die, well that's just more business for them, now isn't it? Ironically I work at a pet store and every single teacher that has been in there has been, well, really, really uneducated when it comes to animals and reptiles in general. One teacher kept her corn snake in the same cage with her California kingsnake despite me telling her over & over & over that it's a mistake and bad things are going to happen and eventually did. Of course you have no idea why you can't keep a corn & a king together, now do you?

Originally Posted by vferra7777

To those that have actually helped us, we say thank you. To the others there is nothing to say besides you make most teenagers look better by example.

Please, I'll never give out misleading advice, even if it means losing a sale. If you're getting advice that is agreeing with what you want to do, then it's 100% WRONG!

Originally Posted by vferra7777

If any of you care to see how it turns out (please do not respond because we will no longer answer anyone from this forum back. You will be wasting your time) you may go to sciline.net, click on biology and see our project unfold.

Yeah I'd tune in just out of morbid curiousity and maybe to get some of the names of the grantees so I can give them an email as to what you're planning to do.

Originally Posted by vferra7777

It would have been nice if someonme would have just contacted us and said..." you know, it is not very alluring BUT I have been keeping anoles and house geckos together

I already told you what can live together above. And anoles and house geckos are a far cry from tarantulas, frilled dragons, mice and tortoises. You really don't have a clue do you?