The truth about Blue tegus!!

Originally Posted by varnyard

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UT...EhNgAAAA%40%40

When doing a search on Dan Garcia as a Veterinarian, it comes up blank, am I missing something here Dan? I am not coming up with anything on a DVM in the Midwest with that name. I figured with the 40 years you have your name would pop right up.

Open mouth insert foot Bobby. Try http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...h&fr=&ei=UTF-8.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Bobby, I respect your knowledge and experience and I love your passion for tegus but that was totally uncalled for. You asked for it. You pushed and pushed and finally Dan cited his credentials and his history. Maybe that will teach you not to ask a question to which do not already know the answer.

As for screen shots of his research et al, that may be pending publication and he is certainly under no obligation to produce it here. His integrity is unchallenged on this site. If he says it is so I believe him, and I believe most others do as well. Similarly, I have no reason to believe that he is fabricating his educational background. I'm certain that he could produce the necessary documentation, but in my opinion there is no need.

That is you opinion Jim, and I respect that. I do not buy it, that is my opinion. All of that info of 40 years in tegus and he does not come in here to talk about his wild studies, or all those captives either. Sorry, but it don't set right in my gut, he made the claim, and is all on him to prove it.

Originally Posted by varnyard

That is you opinion Jim, and I respect that. I do not buy it, that is my opinion. All of that info of 40 years in tegus and he does not come in here to talk about his wild studies, or all those captives either. Sorry, but it don't set right in my gut, he made the claim, and is all on him to prove it.

Bobby, he said 40 years of keeping reptiles, not keeping tegus. My advice is to have a cold one and then re-read his post tomorrow. Your getting more angry is not going to solve your disagreements with him.

Bobby,

Please don't go there as it was you who started calling names, not me. You tried to belittle and dismiss my comments, not me. Never in my history in the BOI did I use the term Dr. when in fact I have two. Thank you very much for the 40-year thingy, but I'm 54. We have lived in the Midwest for 13 years. The rest in southern South America, a part of the world where tegus are really common. As for not finding me in the web, I have always kept a low profile in order not to mix hobby with profession. But if you search right you will find probably around 10 pages that cite my name on one way or another as well as publications and research projects with the government USDA/USAID/Peace Corps and the ARS.

From now on, this thread about "the truth about blue tegus" is all yours. It was not my intention to upset you in any way and hopefully "the truth" will prevail.

Take care

I do not recall calling you names, however I was a bit hard. Dan, but why have you not helped us in the quest to learn more on this species? I have worked very hard in learning more about these animals, studies, internet research (Limited at best) as well as talking to long time breeders here in the U.S. (Bert Langerwerf) and in South America (Roberto Fracchia). I have a true passion for these animals and want to help others; there are no good books on them.

Anyway, I see you were right about who you say you are. I still do not agree with the D3 substitution, it failed in my study and also fails when the UV bulbs grow old or if they do not exist.

Sorry I hit you hard, but my feelings on D3 have not changed. I think it is way to high of a risk to substitute without even knowing if it would ever work.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Vitamin and mineral requirements of reptiles are very little known; there's not much research being done.

That statement alone tells me all I need to know.... all I already knew about diurnal reptiles. Advocating D3 over UV is not very wise in my opinion. It was never meant to be a replacement for UV, but a supplement when adequate UV exposure is not a possibility.

Anyone who has kept herps any length of time knows there are many ways we can keep herps alive, but there is a difference between keeping them alive and getting them to thrive. Using D3 as a replacement for UV will keep them alive, but it certainly does not allow them to thrive the way getting proper UV does.

Hi Bobby,

I have a question related to something I read in the discussion at TheTegu.com. One of the people there said that Ron St. Pierre "never claimed" he had produced snows in the same manner that corn or boa breeders produce snows (i.e. a combo of melanistic and albino)... here is the quote.

A bit of info about the "snow" tegu morph. Bobby keeps insisting that a snow tegu is (or should be) a combination of the albino morph and a melanistic blue tegu. I just wanted to clear up the fact that Ron NEVER made the claim that this was how the snow tegu was created. It is true that a snow corn snake, or a snow boa are created by combining the albino and melanistic morphs. However, the snow leopard geckos have no albino in them whatsoever. Yet, they're still called "snows". A blizzard corn snake and a blizzard leopard gecko are not created the same way either. Yet they're both still called "blizzards". The reason? Because terms like "snow", "sunglow", "blizzard", etc are not scientific descriptions of morphs. They are simply marketing created terms and can be applied in different ways. The truth about snow tegus is that they are albinos that are different from the original albino tegus. And that's all that Ron ever claimed they were.

Is this true? I am not a breeder, but I have a good basic understanding of corn snake morphs and genetics. Very little knowlege of leopard gecko morphs or genetics though. As a long-time fish hobbyist, I have seen a lot of strange terms cooked up just to induce better sales... so I would not be suprised to find that this is the case here as well.

I do agree with most of what you said here. At Alligator Adventure, in Myrtle Beach, they have two albino alligators, which must be kept under an enclosed canopy without direct access to sunlight, or they will burn. It's sad to create a UV-intolerant morph in an animal like a tegu that spends time basking, and enjoys basking, on a daily basis. Fortunately I am one who finds that natural color patterns most attractive... hopefully at some point I will be ordering a normal colored baby tegu from ya Bobby.

Thanks in advance for the response.

We will sure take a look at this.

A bit of info about the "snow" tegu morph. Bobby keeps insisting that a snow tegu is (or should be) a combination of the albino morph and a melanistic blue tegu.

If it is a Snow morph, than in my opinion it is fine to call them just that, however, they are albinos and not snow morphs at all.

I just wanted to clear up the fact that Ron NEVER made the claim that this was how the snow tegu was created.

I think matters little how they were “claimed” to be created, the fact is they are being called a snow morph, and are being sold as such. Albinos are bringing much less then the so called snow morphs, even though the snow morphs are nothing more than a lighter colored albino from the same exact clutch.

It is true that a snow corn snake, or a snow boa are created by combining the albino and melanistic morphs. However, the snow leopard geckos have no albino in them whatsoever. Yet, they're still called "snows". A blizzard corn snake and a blizzard leopard gecko are not created the same way either. Yet they're both still called "blizzards". The reason? Because terms like "snow", "sunglow", "blizzard", etc are not scientific descriptions of morphs.

Looks like a bunch of rock jumping there, as for the geckos, and I am no expert on them, there were line bred Snows and Mac snows, and are morphs or selectively bred for color, as far as I know, as I said I am no expert on them. Then he speaks of the blizzards, they are not snows, nor are they called such.
Both sound cold though.

They are simply marketing created terms and can be applied in different ways. The truth about snow tegus is that they are albinos that are different from the original albino tegus. And that's all that Ron ever claimed they were.

Yea, I think that speaks real loud there, "marketing terms", is that what it is? So what is the "marketing terms" for? Is it a way to collect extra cash on animals that are not any more special then the siblings?

These animals are out of the same clutch, but if you get lucky one will be lighter in color. So, how are they a different albino? Take albino boas as an example, some are lighter than others in the same clutch, are they the same albinos? They would not be called Snow morphs, but rather albinos.

Here is another comment from there I wanted to address:

Their description is exactly how I feel about that subject. Even though blue tegus came from a small original group of possibly related tegus, risking the inbreeding was the only way for these animals to be produced so that we can have them in our collections. It is now a matter of trying to collect future breeders from over a long period of time and from different sources to ensure that they are as distantly related as possible to keep as diverse as we can.

So, these tegus came from a small original group, but if you collect future breeders from over a long period of time and from different sources it will ensure that they are as distantly related as possible to keep them as diverse as you can?


So how exactly would that make them diverse? They are all still related, and it would/will not change anything.

How many people have relatives all over the country, or world for that matter? They are all different ages, but still related, correct? Are they in anyway diverse, based on this? That is a false statement, in the end they all are out of the original very few siblings regardless how you slice it up. If you have a brother in Texas, and you live in Florida, are you not still brothers? You would not be any more diverse in any way, regardless how old you are, or where you are from.

I hope this answers the questions you had, if not, let me know and I will try harded.

I hope this isn't locked, but anyway, it's not really an issue is it? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If tegus live in the sun, why not provide them with artificial sunlight with the same vitamins found in normal sunlight? I'm not sure why this is even an arguement. Oh and Lucille I saw your post on Sisco's site, you did a great job at attempting to mud sling and making an ass out of yourself.

Blue tegus may not be as far inbred as we think, especially if the number of originals was more than 6. Although the aren't VERY rare, they are fairly difficult to come by, but if the originals were imported were siblings, then it's been downhill for a while. Generally 3-5 generations could squeak by without too many problems, but they would show up, but it hasn't really been that long since they were imported. So the only FACT we know, is that we don't have any definite information. Who's to say someone hasn't smuggled some in? It's not like people are always law-abiding citizens, and hell if you kill one in SA and skin it, it's perfectly legal to bring it on in, so a nice big crate full of skins with a few live ones in the bottom isn't exactly impossible.

As for snow tegus, the word snow takes different meanings to different animals. Nothing "snow" really exists, just like nothing pied or cinnamon or pastel really exist. It's kinda like saying that someone really isn't of Latin descent just because they're not dark enough. All of those terms, excluding ones that are factual conditions, like melanistic, albino, leucistic, etc., are just marketing concepts to sell animals that have varied through selective breeding. Dogs are still dogs, just as tegus are still tegus, and the deformities that the market manipulates to have something "different" (for a happy some of over 2000US$) is very demanding. So in the true terms of the so-called snow, a melanistic x albino tegu, I do not believe exists, because I don't believe that a melanistic tegu has occured. You have to realize that it has to previously exist in the wild to make it to the market. We are manipulating species, not creating them. If a single tegu in the wild has some deformities from it's species, like say a raised horn on its head from a calcium deposit, or a non-existent tail, due to a flaw in it's DNA, it would have to be crossed with other tegus in hopes that these deformities would again exist? Why would you do that? If I had a disease that caused my body to be unable to grow hair, would women try to copulate with me in an attempt to spread this condition with their children in hopes to pass it out? I think not. I do not think that morphs are unfair, but I believe that true conditions and deformities being manipulated into being something desired is not only ignorant and ARROGANT, but cruel. I would not want to be an albino, though being albino is not something horrible to look at, it's just a danger. Albino humans can die simply as a result of the disease alterring their daily life. So a sun requiring tegu, being oversensitive to light, causing burns and blindness, doesn't really seem like something anyone should want to me.

So if the problem persists of not being able to import more subspecies of tegus, why has no one made an effort to change the policy? Obviously SA governments are not going to say "Hey what the hell, Americans like em, so ship em out." but why has no one attempted to suggest a breeding exchange program? Why has no one felt it necessary to try and re-establish the animals that the pet trade is manipulating?

There's my rant.

Drew

Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

Hi Bobby,

I have a question related to something I read in the discussion at TheTegu.com. One of the people there said that Ron St. Pierre "never claimed" he had produced snows in the same manner that corn or boa breeders produce snows (i.e. a combo of melanistic and albino)... here is the quote.

Is this true? I am not a breeder, but I have a good basic understanding of corn snake morphs and genetics. Very little knowlege of leopard gecko morphs or genetics though.

In a sense, yes it is true.

Snow boas are homozygous amelanistic (AKA "albino" - missing black pigment) and homozygous anerythristic (missing red and/or yellow pigment - AKA "black albino" but NOT "melanistic" which is a short form of "hypermelanistic" and implies extreme black pigmentation, often solid black animals).
Snow corns are also homozygous amelanistic/anerythristic.
Snow royal pythons are homozygous amelanistic and homozygous axanthic (missing yellow).

But a "Snow" leopard gecko is heterozygous or homozygous for a codominant axanthic-effect gene and is NOT albinistic at all by definition. In order to produce a "snow" leopard gecko that matches the other species, you'd have to combine the codominant axanthic "Mack/Gem/TUG Snow" gene with one of the three strains of amelanistic-effect (albino) genes - Tremper/Bell/Las Vegas, to produce an animal with no black pigment AND no yellow pigment... and that would be called a "Snow Albino."

And a "Blizzard" leopard gecko is more like a Leucistic Texas Rat snake than it is like a "Blizzard" corn snake; they're both leucism-effect single recessive genes rather than the double homozygous charcoal/amelanism of a Blizzard corn. It's a shame that "leucistic" had already been erroneously applied to the Patternless leopard geckos before Blizzard was discovered.

I do have to admit, though, the "albino" tegus I've seen seem much more like extreme hypomelanistics that still show what looks like true black pigment in some areas, but display ocular amelanism - though I will admit I have not seen many photos and photo colour reproduction onto computer monitors can be patchy at best. What I see is red eyes, but black/grey markings instead of the chocolate/caramel brown I'd expect from an animal that's producing melanin precursors but not true melanin. The "snows" look more like what I'm used to from an amelanistic reptile.