David Snyder

Hey all—

I’ve never had to do a BOI post before so please bare with me as I’m sure this is going to be insanely long in an effort to provide as much detail as possible. The reason for this post is that my brother Aaron and I purchased an adult female green tree python (via paypal) from David Snyder. From the moment we paid for the snake until just after she passed away (27 hours after arrival) David and I were in constant communication via text message. I have nearly every text message saved in my phone as well as typed out in a word document and anytime I say that he or I said something I am quoting those text messages. The bare bones of the story are that David insisted on shipping during very cold temperatures, despite the fact that I had voiced my concern many times, and he didn’t package the snake well enough. She arrived in such a hypothermic state that I, as well as two witnesses, believed she had frozen to death. I managed to revive her, but she was clearly ill and passed away at my vet’s office 27 hours later. Not only do I believe that David knowingly shipped a sick snake, but he did not package her well enough and has refused to refund us our money.

Now for a more detailed account:

January 14th—I received a text message from David letting me know that he had received our payment and that he was looking to ship the next Monday (the 17th). I told him I thought it might be too cold and asked if he was at all worried about the weather but he said no, she would be fine. He said he packs them well so wasn’t worried but that we would see how the weather was.

January 16th—David sent me a text saying he wanted to ship the following day and asked if that was ok. I told him it was wicked cold here with night temps down in the teens and asked, again, if he thought she would be ok in that. He answered saying that it should be fine and that it was only getting colder. He assured me that she would be in an insulated box with heat.

January 17th—without any further discussion I received a text from David with a tracking number. I then got a second text in which he told me that she “somehow got blue blotches on her in some areas”. He stated that it was “very strange” and that they were “ocean blue”. I didn’t remember ever giving him our address so questioned him on that and commented that the blue blotches sounded weird and asked what he thought they were. He replied telling me the address had been on the paypal link (it’s a good thing I asked as the address he had seen was my father’s office address) and that the “blue spots were weird” and that he had “never seen that” and they had “literally appeared overnight”. He said “Idk if it’s hormonal or if she stayed under the lamp to long” and said it didn’t make sense and was “just strange”.

January 18th—the chondro arrived on time and I sent David a text to let him know. While my car was warming up I decided to open the box and take a peek. When I unknotted the pillowcase and didn’t see the snake’s head I lifted the pillowcase out of the box to turn her and realized she was ice cold. I nudged her and got no response so sat down with her in my lap and gave her a couple of nudges, but still got no response. I even covered her pupils to look for a reaction to light and got nothing. After a moment I decided to try to warm her up and moved into an office with a space heater. While sitting with her in my lap rubbing her I called Dave and let him know that there had only been one heat pack in the box and that it was ice cold and obviously hadn’t been enough. I told him that the snake appeared to have frozen to death but that I was trying to warm her to see if she would come around. He sounded upset and told me I was wrong, that there were two heaters and that the other one was between the Styrofoam and the cardboard. He asked me if I could temp gun the snake and the box, but I reminded him that the snake hadn’t been sent to my home and that, therefore, I didn’t have a temp gun on hand. He suggested I put her in the sink in warm water, I told him I would give her a few minutes and then try that and at that point we hung up. About ten minutes later I texted him to let him know I had seen a few small tongue flicks and was filling a tub to soak her in. I said that I hoped she would pull thru and that she wouldn’t get sick. He responded saying he would give us “a lil back if she pulls thru just to be courteous” and asked if I had a chance to check the second heat pack.

As I was busy with the snake it took me about twenty minutes to reply but when I did I let him know that she had gotten a bit active in the tub and that I was once again sitting by the heather with her while waiting for my car to warm up (again). I told him she was doing a lot of open mouth breathing and told him I felt she would pull through but that only time would tell. I also told him, again, that I really hoped she wouldn’t get sick and let him know that I could feel the heater through the bottom of the box but not at all through the Styrofoam. David wrote back asking if I thought the one in the box “ended up quiten early” and told me he had checked it and it was starting to warm up. He told me he was “pissed about this situation I’m in” and that his “good luck streak finally ran out” and said that he felt terrible for both me and the snake. I responded saying that the heat pack in the box was totally cold and that I hadn’t yet pulled the Styrofoam out of the box to actually hold the other heat pack. I told him I felt very back for the snake and that she seemed very tired and stressed. I told him that as long as the snake was ok, so was I but that if she got sick I was going to be upset as I just wasn’t able to handle a big vet bill at that moment. I then told him I was heading home and would update him when she was settled.

An hour later I let him know I had soaked her again and that she was drinking a lot. I told him she was in her new cage and had slowly made her way up to the top perch and was loosely coiled there. I told him I was going to go ahead and make her a vet appointment as she was still doing a lot of open mouth breathing, was sitting with her nose pointed up and that we had even seen a few bubbles…but weren’t sure if they were just from drinking or not. David replied saying that sounded good and asked for my address. He said he wanted to send me something to help with vet bills as he knew I wasn’t expecting them but said he didn’t either but didn’t want to leave me out to dry. I responded letting him know that she still had her nose up and was opening her mouth on and off which was concerning me. I told him I put a call in to the vet to see if there was anything more I could do for her at home and told him I felt she had just had enough stress for one day and wanted to see how she did before rushing her in to the vet. I also told him I appreciated his offer of helping with vet expenses and that I would definitely be taking him up on it but that I thought we should wait and see what happened and how expensive it would be. I expressed concerns about what damage may have been done to her internally during the extreme cold as well as what the blue blotches were about.

After that we went back and forth a little bit about husbandry and I sent him some pictures of her set up as well as of her sitting with her head up and mouth open so that he could see what I was seeing. If someone tells me how to post pictures I have the pictures I sent him saved and can show them to you guys if you want.

At one point as we were going back and forth about husbandry he mentioned that he had cooled her for a few weeks prior to shipping her and wondered if that would have made her more prone to getting an RI. This was the first I had heard about her being cooled.

After a bit more back and forth I left the snake alone for a couple of hours and when I came back and checked I found her on the floor of her cage with her head resting in one of her plants. I sent David a text letting him know what was going on and asked if this was something she had done before. He asked if she was still “gasping for air” and I told him I couldn’t see her face but that I could hear her breathing and it was definitely a “crackly” type of sound that seemed consistent with an RI and told him she would definitely be going to the vet but that I was worried about her being on the ground. He told me that it wasn’t uncommon for her, so I covered her cage for the night and left to run some errands.

A few hours later I let David know (via text) that I had spoken to the vet and was going to bring her in first thing the next morning. He asked that I let him know how it went and I told him I definitely would.

January 19th—I uncovered the chondro’s cage and found her lying listlessly on the ground as if she was dead, but upon closer inspection found that she was alive, but barely. I sent David a text letting him know that she didn’t look good and sent him some pics to show what I was describing (again, can post the pics if someone tells me how) and told him I was going to grab a real quick breakfast and rush her in to the vet. David’s response was “wow. She is going downhill fast. Wtf. I shipped another gtp yesterday to p.a. and at 10 pm the guy finally told me he made it fine. Idk what the hell to think.” I told him I didn’t know what to think either and threw out a couple of theories and mentioned the blotches, questioning whether they may have been a sign of something brewing. David said that they were odd and that it was the first time he had ever seen them and that they appeared fast. He asked if the chondro was acting slow and I responded saying that she was. I told him I had tried holding her upside down the day before and that she did slowly right herself. I told him I hoped she hadn’t exposed my collection to anything “crazy” and asked him if he would like me to contact him before making any decisions regarding either expensive testing or euthanasia if the vet didn’t think she could be saved and he responded that he would and that he could “help a lil” but that we should wait and see what the damage was. I told him I believed a culture and blood work would be mandatory but that if there was anything else I’d get in touch with him first.

Two hours later I sent David a text saying that I had just gotten out of the vets office and that the snake was hanging on, but just barely. She was so bad that the vet had actually called me back in on my way out because he believed she had stopped breathing and was checking for a heartbeat. I think we were both surprised when he found one. I told David I was leaving the snake there and that they were giving her fluids and antibiotics and that they were going to pull blood. I told him the vet had diagnosed moderate mouth rot and believed she had an RI (which w/o a culture he couldn’t officially confirm) and that he wasn’t sure what the blotches were but that he guessed either burns, the beginning of scale rot or potentially—if she was an older snake—it could have been a sign of her system shutting down. I told him that they were just trying to keep her warm and hydrated and that the vet would call me that evening to update me and to make further decisions. If she was holding her own we’d leave her there thru the night and see how she was in the morning but if she was looking any worse we would euthanize her in order to prevent any unnecessary suffering thru the night. At that time I asked David “if she passes away or has to be euthanized (and unfortunately that is a very real possibility) how do you want to proceed? Should I get a necropsy done to determine cause of death? Would you want to see a statement from the vet saying she passed? Would you want her shipped back? Of course I’m hoping she makes it but I want to be prepared.”

David responded asking “RI and mouth rot? She never showed any symptoms of that. And I’m usually good about that not to say it was overlooked. When I shipped her she was perched perfect. I guess I’m having a hard time absorbing this all. Hard to believe. Did he give a reason for her sudden drop in life? She was not acting that sick when I had her. If she does go I definitely don’t want her back. Hopefully that won’t be the case. Did he give you an opinion on whether she would pull thru?”

I told David that the vet had a few theories on the RI and all of them involved her either already having it before being shipped or at least having a reduced immune system (due either to cooling or old age) and the beginning stages of an RI and that the extreme cold just accelerated it. I told him the bottom line was that especially with the mouth rot the vet did not think it happened overnight. I told him that regardless of how it happened, it happened and that now we were just doing all we could for her. I then asked, “so if she passes you don’t want her shipped back…what will you want?” and he replied saying a document from the vet emailed to him but that he hoped she would make it. He then stated, “If it was a minor RI I eventually would have caught it and had it taken care of. Mouth rot is from the discharge of an RI. Mouth rot had to be minimal cause you usually notice dried up mucus on the sides of their mouth. The cold had to definitely drop her immune system to nilch. We can still just play it by ear. I don’t know how I wanna proceed being this was never an issue with the 200+ snakes I’ve shipped over the years. It’s sickening from both ends and I’m simply not sure how I should handle this.”

At that point I told him that he should know that we were felling like we shouldn’t have vet bills for a snake we hadn’t even had for 24 hours but that we would have to see what happened. I told him I agreed that the cold must have played a big part in what had happened and that I didn’t know if she wasn’t heated enough or if the hot pack didn’t heat as it should but that the end result was the same and that she had arrived pretty well frozen. I told him it was too late for what ifs and second guessing and that we just had to deal with what was and hope for the best. He replied asking me how much the vet had been so far, so I went over the costs with him and offered to email the estimate to him for him to see for himself but he just responded saying he would work with us.

After that there was some unimportant banter back and forth about other snakes we had each had that were either sick (on my end) or delivered frozen (on his end) and about how the outcomes were. About twenty minutes later I let him know that the vet had called and that sadly the snake had passed away. I told him I needed to know if he wanted us to get a necropsy done to determine the cause of death and he responded saying that the cause of death was obvious to him and that he didn’t feel we needed to rack up the vet bill more than it already was. He then stated that he was pissed because he would have kept her had he known this was going to happen. I replied saying no one had a crystal ball and we couldn’t have known that it was going to happen and that crap happens. ***At this point I lost my sent texts so I don’t know word for word what I said but I know I hinted at the fact that she was it was possible she had been sick prior to shipping and David responded (**I did not lose my incoming texts, so anything he said is still being quoted from the texts**) saying he had never knowingly sold a sick snake and that he never would. He said he had gotten great feedback over the years and “it had to end like this” (he had told me he was getting out of snakes and that she was his last one.) I replied saying I hoped he realized I wasn’t accusing him, just stating possibilities and he said he knew that and then asked what my brother and I were looking at to make this right. I told him that we believed he should refund our money in full and should pay the vet bill.

David’s response was “That is out of the question. One I don’t have it. Two it ain’t my fault a heat pack malfunctioned during shipping. I did everything right when she was shipped. Once she is shipped its out of my hands and I can’t control what happens. It’s very unfortunate this happened. Were both victims. And I don’t mind sharing the loss but will not take the whole thing. It’s a lesson learned for both of us. I’m sure heat packs rarely malfunction like that but a fluke happened. You were equally responsible I feel sending money to ship a snake this time of year. I shipped her on the warmest day of the week.”

Now again, I don’t have my sent messages but I did sit down and write everything down very soon after this all happened and I believe my response was very close to the following: “Excuse me, no you did not. It may have been the warmest day there, but it certainly wasn’t here. I warned you that it was in the teens here the last few nights and you said it was fine. I said I was concerned about the cold temps and you said not to worry. And just because I sent you money doesn’t mean it was to ship this moment. There are many people who sell snakes at this time of year and hold them until the warmer weather comes and ship them then. I have tried to be nice and not point any fingers and for you to hint that I was in any way responsible for this pisses me off to no end. I will send your information to my brother and the two of you can discuss it since he was the one who paid.”

And that was the end of that. From that point on he and my brother discussed the situation via email. I have those emails saved and will happily post them if someone tells me how to do so (unless I should just copy and paste them?) but the gist of it was them going back and forth about how much David was willing to give us back (the highest he was willing to go was $400 (we paid $600 for the snake and had a $140 vet bill) and at one point he actually said that the vet bill wasn’t his fault and that if he had personally seen her and she looked as bad as we say she did that he may have just said the hell with it and not taken her…which disturbs me on many levels, not least of all is that I described her condition to him and sent him pictures…what more did he want? Anyway, after going back and forth a few times my brother told him that he had had enough and wasn’t going to argue any more. He said that if David didn’t refund the purchase price that we were going to take legal action and then would demand that he pay the vet bill as well (we had silently given up on the vet bill in hopes of at least getting our $600 back).

We did go to a lawyer and had a letter sent to David letting him know that if he did not refund the cost of the snake as well as reimburse us the cost of the vet bill action would be taken. He responded by calling the lawyer, explaining that it wasn’t his fault that the heat pack malfunctioned, and then said he needed time to talk to a lawyer of his own. After two weeks I contacted the lawyer and asked how long we were meant to wait, so a follow up letter was sent letting him know that since he (our lawyer) had not heard from him that he was moving forward and was in the process of obtaining a lawyer in New York for us who would file a complaint for the losses we sustained. He told him that if he did not hear from him within ten days that he would proceed in that process without further notice. That was on the 9th of this month. Yesterday (the 12th) I received an email from him with an “offer”. I had not intended to post here until the matter was settled, but in his email he told me he had a litter of boas due in a few short months and asked if we would be interested in one of the babies. He said he would make it worth it for us for sure and that he may even be willing to part with one of the adults after the litter drops. He assured me that all of his snakes are healthy and that since the wither is finally turning for the better he would guarantee live arrival and health and asked that I let him know if we were interested or not so he could let our lawyer know that he made us an offer. So now I’m concerned that what happened to us could happen to someone else…and I’m hoping that in posting this very long message that I will have helped prevent that from happening.

I will say that David has never been rude, disrespectful or nasty in any way shape or form…however we do not feel that we have been treated fairly and we are determined not to let him “get away with it”. In my opinion the snake was already ill when she went into the box to be shipped. Mouth rot does not happen over night and is usually a secondary illness, as David himself pointed out. I don’t know what the “blotches” were on this snake, but I do know that if she were my snake and I noticed something that strange and out of the ordinary I would not then put her in a box and ship her out to someone who had paid good money for her without so much as a conversation with the buyer. Perhaps I should have been stronger in my concerns about the cold weather, but I will admit that I am new enough to this to have believed him when he said that he had successfully shipped in weather that cold without a problem.

The terrible part in all of this is that the snake had to suffer. She didn’t deserve the treatment she received and that is part of what makes me so determined to get David to pay (literally). Not only do I not want him to “get away with” what he did to us…I don’t think he should be able to “get away with” what he did to her.

Bottom line: Beware of purchasing from David Snyder.

PS...in addition to the emails that went back and forth between my brother and David, and the pictures I sent to David I also have the hot pack that was in with the snake (an 18 hour hand warmer) as well as pictures of the box she was in (which was not an insulated box, it was just a box lined with quarter inch styrofoam) as well as a statement from the vet stating that cause of death was the hypothermic event caused by sub-standard packaging that also states that the snake was in poor condition and had moderate mouth rot. I can post any and all of these things if need be...someone would just have to tell me how.

First off, I want to say I'm sorry that this happened to you and the snake. That's absolutely terrible, thinking of all that poor animal went through.

It's 100% David's responsibility as far as I can tell. The seller is ultimately responsible for deciding to ship in cold weather, responsible for using a VERY UNACCEPTABLE hand-warmer instead of a real heat pack and insulated box, and responsible for selling an animal that was very obviously not 'normal'.

I'd be interested in seeing the photos once you get them uploaded.

It's very worrisome that he would offer you more animals, I wouldn't touch anything he had with a ten foot pole after all this. She very obviously wasn't 'his last one' if he has a litter due to drop soon. Thanks for posting this, and I hope your case goes through successfully.

Did David guarantee live arrival? It sounds like the snake died as a direct result of the below freezing temperatures.

Hey rachel did you shoot a link of this boi to David Snyder.
I think many of us would like to here what he has to say.

Originally Posted by Candachan

First off, I want to say I'm sorry that this happened to you and the snake. That's absolutely terrible, thinking of all that poor animal went through.

It's 100% David's responsibility as far as I can tell. The seller is ultimately responsible for deciding to ship in cold weather, responsible for using a VERY UNACCEPTABLE hand-warmer instead of a real heat pack and insulated box, and responsible for selling an animal that was very obviously not 'normal'.

I'd be interested in seeing the photos once you get them uploaded.

It's very worrisome that he would offer you more animals, I wouldn't touch anything he had with a ten foot pole after all this. She very obviously wasn't 'his last one' if he has a litter due to drop soon. Thanks for posting this, and I hope your case goes through successfully.

Thank you. I was on an emotional roller coaster for a good couple of days during all of this. Sitting with that snake in my lap in front of the heater coaxing her back to life really got me emotionally invested in her in a really short period of time and I was pretty upset when she passed...but there just wasn't anything more I could do for her. At least she died in a warm, caring environment.

And I absolutely wouldn't touch another of his animals. That was what made me come post here. I really wasn't going to until the matter was resolved, but I don't want someone else to end up in the position my brother and I were in.

How do I post pics on here?

Also, did he use heat packs or were they those small hot hands things that one can purchase at Wal Mart? Even if he used the 40 hour heat packs that you would normally ship with a reptile, there is a good chance the snake would have perished anyway. Heat packs raise the air temps inside the box 12 to 16 degrees. This is why it is always best not to ship reptiles unless the temps are above freezing.

Originally Posted by NJRae

Thank you. I was on an emotional roller coaster for a good couple of days during all of this. Sitting with that snake in my lap in front of the heater coaxing her back to life really got me emotionally invested in her in a really short period of time and I was pretty upset when she passed...but there just wasn't anything more I could do for her. At least she died in a warm, caring environment.

And I absolutely wouldn't touch another of his animals. That was what made me come post here. I really wasn't going to until the matter was resolved, but I don't want someone else to end up in the position my brother and I were in.

How do I post pics on here?

You can use the attachment manager to upload photos, or use a separate site such as photobucket or www.imgur.com

Originally Posted by bayoucityboas

Hey rachel did you shoot a link of this boi to David Snyder.
I think many of us would like to here what he has to say.

I didn't...and I'm not sure I can as my lawyer has instructed us not to contact him. The reason I hadn't posted her previously was that I didn't want to get into an online battle with him while all of the legal communication is going back and forth...but with the news that he will be looking to sell baby boas I felt I had to speak up. I have no problem with him telling his side of the story as I believe he is wrong no matter how you look at it and I don't believe I did a single thing wrong...but I'm already not sure how my lawyer would feel about my posting this so I don't imagine he would be happy if I then emailed him as well. I hope that makes sense and that you understand.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Also, did he use heat packs or were they those small hot hands things that one can purchase at Wal Mart? Even if he used the 40 hour heat packs that you would normally ship with a reptile, there is a good chance the snake would have perished anyway. Heat packs raise the air temps inside the box 12 to 16 degrees. This is why it is always best not to ship reptiles unless the temps are above freezing.

Rachel mentions at the end that she was shipped with 2 18-hour handwarmers, only one being inside the styro with the snake, the other being between the styro and the outside box (which is the most useless place to put a heatpack except maybe taping it to the outside of the box or your own forehead).

Originally Posted by KelliH

Did David guarantee live arrival? It sounds like the snake died as a direct result of the below freezing temperatures.

I wish I could say for sure if he had guaranteed live arrival or not but I didn't think to make a copy of the ad I had responded to and as soon as the snake passed away the ad was no where to be found. I believe he did guarantee live arrival...but I can't say for sure. My feeling is that even if he didn't he is still responsible. It's not like the snake became ill after we had her for a while or like she arrived in a beat-up box...she arrived frozen as a result of his sub-standard shipping and was clearly ill before being sent out (mouth rot doesn't happen overnight or as a result of low temps). I wish I had saved the ad or could remember for sure...but I'm just not sure that it matters one way or another in this case.