need help on breeding my veiled chams.

thank you all for your opinions

As much as I appreciate your experience with this years females I am not speaking from months or even a few years experience. True, veileds can be bred at 6-8 months, no one here has disputed that fact. And there are no set rules for breeding veileds or any other chameleon. The facts are there though. Over the past 12-15 years many, many people have bred veileds at different stages of life and different body weights/conditions. In most cases it has been shown that the life span is shortened when they are bred too young. As I stated before, 6 months used to be the standard that everyone bred veileds at. As the hobby has progressed many people have waited to breed until their animals reach 10-12 months and have seen not only an increase in overall production but healthier offspring and longer lived breeders. Most of this can be attributed to captive veileds being fed far too much and growing to large too quickly and producing very large clutches of eggs. 40-60 eggs sounds great when you are selling the babies but this is an abnormally large clutch when compared to wild veileds.

Egg binding is not an effect of infertile eggs being produced many breeders, myself included, have had veileds produce several clutches of infertile eggs and show no ill effects. Egg binding is almost always related to body weight and captive conditions.

While I agree that all animals should be taken on an individual basis I wonder how many novice keepers have the background knowledge to make that determination in the best interest of the animal and not the best interest of the keeper.

40-60 eggs would be "Abnormally sized" clutches for "wild female veileds", however, it is a statement concerning the quality of their lives in the aspect of their captive care and living conditions. I've been breeding veileds for a couple of years now, the first females I bred at 7 months of age (purchased in December 2001, bred late summer 02) , and both of these animals are still alive and doing well. To be honest, had not the animals I hatched in December 03 done so well outdoors (they started under Mercury Vapors) I would have waited myself, but these gals were full-blown adult size/weight by 5 months of age and every single one of them threw perfect clutches without complications (bred at 6-7
months and laid at 7-8 months), and the entire lot of 14 females is gravid again about to lay their second clutches for the year. I agree with Jason on one point at least- the discretion of the individual hobbyist is the key here, but it would be tough indeed to draw the line where it is the right or wrong thing to do for the animal by someone with little experience. I NEVER claimed to be an expert, but I DO write what works for me (which does NOT necessarily work for the next hobbyist), and let me tell you, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for natural, unfiltered sunlight and fresh outdoor air for your chameleons, and keeping them outdoors keeps them happy, productive, and healthy, and you'll be amazed at the difference it makes in your animals. Egg laying has a tendency to go much smoother as the animals have the oppurtunity to metabolize calcium at the absolute peak, and extra dietary supplements simply help the process along. You're right also Jason, that egg-binding is not necessarily infertility related (it's mostly related to stress and unhealthy animals)
, however, infertile clutches are just a serious waste of calcium for a female who lays said clutches. Me personally, I just wait until the individual animals seem ready, and stickem in with a male, and prefer to skirt around even the possibility that a clutch would go to complete waste by simply breeding my females to a fertile male. Anyhow, that's not the issue here, to the thread originator veiledchamlvr:
Your veileds are not ready to breed yet, if your male was ready for action, there would have been no hesitation in mounting the female after chasing her down (most male veileds do not hesitate). If you're using an artificial lighting setup (flourescents- wait until 10-12 months of age, Mercury vapors- 9-10 months) you should definitely wait to give the female time to prepare and absorb as much UVB as possible (to metabolize as much calcium as possible) before attempting to breed her. About two or so months before you plan on trying, bump up her calcium dust intake to make sure she gets moreso than usual (3-4 times a week dusting food if not every feeding). The next time you put them together, they should go no hesitation, just give them a couple of months to get ready for it. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*
http://msreptilianhobbyists.fabpage.com

I do have them in an artificial setup. if i put them outside would it be okay for me to breed them in about a month.

also how long should the average 5-6 month old female veiled be. i need to know because that might be why my girl isn't breeding. i got her in a trade for one of my boys that was 5.5-6 months. when i asked the person who traded me how old she was he just said "Probally older or younger than him". she is about 5" long. i think she is too too young

You have to make positive your night and day temperatures are favorable from the chameleons standpoint. Daytime highs from 75-95 are about right, with nightime drops to around 70 degrees. If your nightly temps are colder than 65, I would bring them inside every evening to avoid them getting sick. Daytime sun is good for chams when being outdoors, so is the great fresh air flow, these things really make a difference in your animals. My females at 5 months or so of age were around 10-12" total length (6-7" SVL- again, it depends on how the individual animal is raised). A month seems like you may be asking a bit much from a small female veiled, but if she begins receiving regular unfiltered sunlight, her calcium metabolisim will increase, and it may be safe to breed her in another month or two (I'm leaning towards two if she's a smaller animal). However, the problem this time of year is the fact that temps are cooling off in the next couple of weeks and it will not be possible to keep them outdoors for much longer (unless you live in FL that is LOL) as the temps will be getting too cool for them. You'll just have to use your own judgement, wait until the animal is completely filled out size-wise (see attached pic) and basically reaches the equlibrium point metabollically where she's really not getting any bigger, at which point you can direct her to breeding efforts. A 5" veiled is definitely an animal that is too small to breed for sure, I would wait a few months and just keep observing her state of health until you feel she's got good enough body weight and size for breeding. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*

okay thankyou very much eric. I appreciate it. I will wait awhile until I think she is ready.

Eric,

I appreciate the fact that in your two years of breeding you have witnessed no adverse effects. The husbandry the animals receive and the access to unfiltered sunlight is indeed a large factor in your success. However as I stated, I am not speaking from one or two years of experience with chameleons. Next month will mark 12 years that I have been working with various chameleon species. And I have witnessed first hand some of the effects of breeding too young and too often. Back in the "old days" we all bred them at 6 months old. That was just the thing to do, you had to do it or they would die, just one of the many tidbits of info that were later proven to be at the very least moderately incorrect. I personally had a female veiled that lived to be seven years old, she produced viable eggs for five years even after laying one infertile clutch before being bred at 12 months old.

While there are no black and white answers for chameleons the information is there and backed up by hard numbers and by many advanced chameleon keepers. Such as this excerpt from the Chameleons Online E-zine, March 2003 issue written by Ken Kalisch...

"I am aware of several hobbyists that have maintained female calyptratus well into their third and fourth year without breeding them. They were healthy viable chameleons. The idea to wait for a chameleon to reach full adult growth is a responsible and responsible approach breeding them. When a chameleon is given the time to fully develop and mature; the reproductive risks are significantly reduced vs. compromising a partially grown reptile. The age, size and health of a female should always be considered carefully before considering breeding. The breeding size of an adult female should average between 12 to 16 inches in overall length. The average age of a female to be bred should fall somewhere between 10 and 14 months."

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year200...eiled_faq.html

Or this excerpt from Adcham.com written by Marc Kramer, DVM...

"Generally speaking, chameleons used for breeding should be of a fully mature size and age and in good body condition. For veiled chameleons, this may mean delaying breeding until they reach 9-12 months of age. It is a common MISCONCEPTION that female veiled chameleons need to be bred at their first signs of sexual receptivity, which may be as early as 3.5 – 5 mo 5 months. In actuality, those females first bred at a later age, once they are fully grown, appear to live longer lives and experience fewer problems with egg binding. Finally, chameleons that are ill, debilitated, geriatric, or obese should not be bred."

http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinar...ue-kramer.html

I could find several more references both online and printed but they would all state the same things.

Let me be clear, I am in no way trying to tell you or anyone else that they are doing something wrong. I am simply sharing information I have acquired from my years working with chameleons as well as sharing information from other advanced keepers in an attempt to provide this information to the original poster and any other visitor to this site that may have a similar question.

I am in no means trying to discount your experience with breeding animals or contradict what you have to say, as I mentioned what some hobbyists do work for some, and sometimes they do not work for others. I simply work from my own experience as to what works for me personally, I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with me on my methods, I simply write what works for me personally, and as long as it continues to be effective for me, I shall continue to write, which may or may not be subject to whatever criticisms seem applicable (as in any science). The main point here being, as long as I meet with success, I will continue to work with my methods, and share what works for me on the topic, and you discover what works for you and do the same (which is the beauty of the fauna forums as we can exchange notes on the topic as to what aspects of husbandry seem to be the most solid practices!). With that in mind, you are indeed an experienced keeper and I hold you in the highest regards in your experience, but the interpretations of our experiences simply differ a little (I can agree to disagree ), and the next keeper may have a different interpretation also, then the next, and so on. The most important part of all this however is pointing the new hobbyist in the right direction in supplying useful information, which is of course the basis for the forum in the first place. -Eric Lago

Agreed.