One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Does anyone know about the florida oranges or the sunfire dragon ranch for animals purchased in the last two years.

Naysayers, Breeders and their “buddies”… Nonsense.

I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

I have no problems talking about Weis’s first generation Red Flames that were imported - but tracing the adenovirus outbreaks in the USA will take us well before Pete was even breeding bearded dragons.

Do you really want to play this game?

Originally Posted by fstop2100a

Does anyone know about the florida oranges or the sunfire dragon ranch for animals purchased in the last two years.

I can't tell you anything specific about either line, but I can tell you this; The only way you can be sure your dragons aren't infected is to test, no matter what line or who their breeder is. The bottom line is that the blood lines avaliable in this country are limited, and the chance that 1 breeder that has stock from multiple sources is completely clean would be pretty impossible to gauge. Take my situation, I had all 15 of my adults and subadults tested, 1 test came back positive. In the case of the positive dragon, I also own her sister and clutch mate, her sister tested negative. Does it make a whole lot of sense to me? No, its just the way it works.
I was a bit stunned when the info about Adeno first hit this forum. Like most here, I was really confused about some of the conflicting information and my vet didn't know anything about it. I spent a week or so contacting every single person I could find on the west coast trying to find information, and then if I could, calling them on the phone. The one thing I heard over and over from people was to contact Dr. Jacobson. I know that other people heard the same thing I did, got the same replies, and after you hear it 20 times, it doesn't take long to figure out that the guy to go to on this issue is Dr. Jacobson.
Then, I got an email from Dr. Jacobson on what tests were accurate, called my vet to see if she could handle the tests, and she could, at least the PCR testing which is sent out to a lab, and then I got tested.

I'll say this. I went into this with an open mind. I read the emails from Cheri and Wendy, I read all the emails from Sunshine. I read all the information I could find on the web, and I had no clue who was being honest and who wasn't. I started emailing people, Herp vets, veterinary schools, researchers, anyone that I thought could make some sense out of it for me but wasn't connected to the sources I found on this forum because I wanted an opinion that was completely unbiased. This is what I heard, "contact Dr. Jacobson" from every single person except 1. That last one simply told me that they had no clue who was researching Adenovirus, the only thing they could tell me was it wasn't them.
So, my opinion, obviously, is that the person most likely to have the information we need is Dr. Jacobson, and if he recommends testing, then testing it is, and I will not buy a dragon who has not been tested, nor will I sell a dragon whose parents have not been tested and are negative.

Cheri,
sounds like you have some sort of personal agenda against those who question your opinions. Your paragraph on the "exotic" morph and it's history is totally inaccurate. Where did you get that information from? If you want to know the REAL history, I would be more than happy to enlighten you, since I am the one who got the whole morph going. Josh

Originally Posted by CheriS

back then there were only a few areas of the country that had positive animals and it would have been easy to contain. But that breeder elected to dumped a large amount of their infected stock to the public and other breeders and some of those other breeders elected to sweep the issue under the rug and also sell stock they had that was infected... which bring us to what we have in not only this country, but also throughout Europe too.

If you are wanting to trace down the source and find someone, two, or four people to blame for the adeno outbreak, then you need to start using names. Holding back information and trying to warn us who we should not buy from is not going to help. Who are you pointing fingers at?

Originally Posted by CheriS

It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together. Don't panic there were lines from the both GG and redflame that were healthy/clear of the virus so do not assume if you have a dragon from those line, that it is infected. Some of those were shipped back to Europe *(this is significant later) but also sold heavily in the New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows and also a group went to Arizona. Still it could have been contained, as it was pretty well known what lines and who had it back in 2001-2002. But again, some breeders elected to continue to sell stock they knew were infected.

I am curious and wanting to know where you received the information you listed that has you pointing towards the Eastern states? Since another reference was made about someone in the above quote, who is this person that had the virus?

Speaking with a few people myself, it seems that false positive tests have popped up with this virus as well as false negatives. Until a truly accurate test is created, it will be very difficult to get a handle on the situation. I need to make a few contacts about this virus.

I said "On the other hand, there are some other states involved early on like IL which is where the first case we are aware was documented and confirmed from.
The above infomation was where the BULK of the virus cases came from, that has spread it to many of the popular lines and breeders today."

You must have missed that sentence. I said where the bulk came from that have infected so many of the popular lines. Suzanne's dragons came from the same breeder that Dr Wentz did all his studies from, Dr Johnson also saw his cases from there, as did the U of Florida, Louisiana or Kansas State. HerpVetConnection put a link on their site to contact us from tracking adenovirus and I do remember having a conversation with you in 2003 about those cases when you saw a post then mentioning adenovirus

Do you really want to play this game?

No, I do not want to play any games, I think that has been done enough with owners/buyers the past few years.

Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…

Please do, I have not seen anything addressed publicly yet and welcome your comments since you seem to know names, dates, line etc, I would assume you are aware of something that many others are not and we would all appreciate hearing.

Cheri, please name the breeder(s) you are implying to have been a major factor in the spreading of this virus.

Josh, my opinion on this is the same as Dr Jacobson and Dr Wentz, want to tell us why you personally have a problem with that and want to make it me having a personal agenda for agreeing with them and not supporting those who sell them to an unsuspecting public? WHO really has a personal agenda here and why?

People are not going to just blind accept someone saying everything is fine, give me your money or pushing something down their throat, and blowing smoke. More are going to be like Denise now that they are aware this is going on out there, do their own checking and come to their OWN conclusions and I am glad they are!

As for the "exotic" morphs you claim is inaccurate, my info comes from Paul Morlock of CaptiveCreations and Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch, most of it was posted openly on Kingsnake.com and many people here will remember it. You can probably find it in the archives there.. so you need to take up with him "who got the whole morph going" as this was long before anyone heard of you and he claimed it was him.

And there are plenty that have tested positive for adenovirus, I know you are aware of that. So what part is inaccurate? If anything is not as Paul said or owners that have tested are not positive, please let me know and I will check it further. who knows, maybe he lied on a public forum, although I can not see why he would about admitting that the early translucent were sickly, died young or did not thrive unless it were true, who would make up something like that and no where in talking about them does he mention you being the one "who got the whole morph going".. either way it does not matter to me.

I decided to save you and others that want to verify my comments so time, since you have stated they are not accurate, here are some of them from Mr Morlock about the early translucent.
Original trans not surviving to adulthood
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...56384&key=2003 FROM 2003

The animals we purchased were actually a group (the whole clutch), not just one. Out of that group only 2 animals displayed the gene. Unfortunately those 2 animals did not make it to adulthood. The remaining animals were split into 2 groups. One group bred to the Sandfire line, and the other to our hypo/pastel line. The resulting hets were then bred and the offspring are the animals that we have been selling

More not surviving to adulthood
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...56077&key=2003

That same year I know of 3 other breeders who also hatched translucets, one each. Unfortunately for them they did not make to adulthood. This leads me to believe this trait is much more widespread

He is asked about more than the normal amount of them not surviving
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...56639&key=2003

Posted by: CheriS at Sun Nov 23 20:32:03 2003 [ Email Message ]

The other breeder I know of had two hatch like this last year, one of each sex, the female did not survive, the male did so far as I know. Does it seem that there are more than the normal amount of them that are not surviving?

AND HE ANSWERS HERE
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...56639&key=2003

Posted by: paulmorlock at Sun Nov 23 22:22:10 2003 [ Email Message ]

True, that's the main reason we have spent 2 years producing hets, to get that trait into healthy animals

Sure looks to me like there were some serious thriving problems there since they were dying! If sibling were breed to other lines and those offspring then breed back together, that inbreeding

Michael, I am not trying to warn you who not to buy from, the breeder that contributed so much to spreading this is not and has not bred or sold beaded dragons since 2002. Other breeders that are known positive and I had proof of it and they were still selling them and not notifying buyers was disclosed many months ago and there is thread on FC about them, that is Sunshine Dragons and some other had also been named as having positive dragons come from them, by others than me on other threads.

Other breeder who have multiple people who bought dragons from them and have told me they tested positive, deny they have had or have any positive dragons or sell them, stating the people must have gotten it elsewhere and also that everyone has it.......... yet they also raise hell anytime anyone post about it on here or anywhere else... you do the math. Those that are positive, need to tell you themselves if they want you to know who their dragons came from, they have the paperwork to prove it, I do not. If they are not sellling them unknown to people, I am not going to say who they are. That is their personal choice and I respect it, they are still doing the right thing and not spreading it. The simple thing is quarantine and test any new dragon you add to your colony.... surprise, breeders lie for a sale or people need to protect themselves and the dragons that already have, as it is very evident, the sellers are not going to. The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?

"New England (PA, NJ, NY) and Southern(FL, NC. SC, GA) states at reptile shows" as that is where the original breeder that spread it so heavily sold many of their dragons at and people who in turn bred those, sold their offspring at. Where does that info come from? herpvetconnection.com vets and owners that saw the red blurb on the home page to contact us as we were trying to track it, it is still up there also. Those were the states that had multiple case confirmed by necropsy and further liver studies and later the fecal test was developed for confirming it in live dragons. Over and over the same origination point came up with few exceptions and the same lines. There was also many post on KS that lead back to the same people, but that was pre 2002 and they do not have archives for then, so I can not give you those, unless I am missing were those are stored.

Even now, so many of the breeders that have tested positive are in those areas or their dragons that tested positive come from those areas.
Just ask those disclosing they are testing positive, they are not trying to hide it, it's the buyers and beginner breeders that are being honest. They have no reason to lie or a personal agenda to hide it.

Tere, about what I told you in that first sentence I posted..... LOL, I rest my case!

Originally Posted by Junkyard

Speaking with a few people myself, it seems that false positive tests have popped up with this virus as well as false negatives. Until a truly accurate test is created, it will be very difficult to get a handle on the situation. I need to make a few contacts about this virus.

Does this refer to the PCR testing as well as the fecal testing?

I am thinking now, Iowa State University has one of the best veterinary science programs in the country, perhaps there would a contact there that would be a good person for me to get ahold of. If nothing else, maybe someone there could walk my local vet (who does not deal much with reptiles, but is very willing to learn, and is a darn good guy in general) through the PCR procedure. Best case scenario, perhaps there is someone there that can help me sort through all of this mess and get to the matter at heart - just what is killing these dragons and what we can ALL do to help stop it.

We can run around and point fingers all day, both good and bad....God knows I'd like to know who is responsible for bringing this to the near "epidemic" level it is now. If those who face major financial losses would have taken the initiative as Tere has BEFORE it got to this point and done something, none of us would be in this position today. This is very true, but it's too late to do anything about that now.

I think at this point, if possible, we need to try to focus on working together to find something that can be done about it NOW. Some, obviously, think they have too much at stake to admit there IS a problem in their colonies. Stop nitpicking and worrying about he said/she said.....the rest of us all need to get off from our butts and DO SOMETHING, before it's too late.