Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

Thanks for you reply, but you are wrong. I don't need to "poison" the reputation of the person this thread is about. HE ALREADY DID THAT ON HIS OWN. Once again read the orginal thread., about Ray at ERJ.
Jesse Smith

there are two people using this login, is that against the rules?!?!?!?

Since a single name is listed to the left underneath the login name of every post... and I doubt that your roommate's name is identical to your own... Yes, it is.

Do you want the phone # of the agent in charge of the case. I am sick of arguing whether its illegal or not. He can just explain it to you.

Cattle Ranchers in Colorado, if they wish to castrate thier own cattle, have to go through a training class of sorts. Taught by a DVM.(maybe not in other states, but in Colorado)

If you cant understand the difference between Baytril and a general anasteshia, then, well... you must be pretty ignorant.
I can get Amoxicillian from my doctor easy, But, could i take home ANY anasteshia? NO. Why, because it has narcotic properties.

Have you ever heard of Ketamine? People started taking it home for thier cats in the 80's, as a tranqulizer. Now it is one of the biggest party drugs in the US.
They dont just send ya home with drugs like they send ya home with a 15 dollar bottle of flagyl Brian.
Jesse Smith

Point taken. However, everytime tom has posted it has been in the colubrid classifieds. And he signed his own name. I will make sure he registers under his own login name.
Jesse Smith

I cant believe you said you can buy everything you need to perform an adectonotomy at a LOCAL FLEA MARKET. I would like to see you prove that. You obviously hav no idea what you are talking about.
jesse smith

So you can buy ILLEGAL/REGULATED drugs and REGULATED veterinary tools. At the flea market no less...LOL's!!!!Or from an unscrupulous veterinarian. Were not talking scapels, alcohol, over the counter antibiotics etc. I do agree that you definately should be able to treat the animals in your care. I would in no way shape or form go against that. Your not looking clearly at what we are talking about. INVASIVE UNECESSARY SURGERY BEING CONDUCTED BY AN UNLICENSED UNTRAINED PERSON! We're not talking about treating a respritory, viral, bacterial or other health related issues. We're talking surgery! I have been working with herps for over 30 years and been in business for 25 years. I do have a background in veterinary medicine as well as field experience! I do treat 90% of my animals myself. All medications that are REGULATED come from a veterinarian that has known me for over 15 years. I keep records of all my meds and where they come from as well as the expirations etc. Yet...... I DO NOT CONDUCT ANY SURGERIES MYSELF. I have a burmese that came in on a rescue that I have nursed back to health. She still has a few eggs that she could not lay,(Attached to the oviduct wall) her surgery will be performed by the University of Florida. NOT ME.
I have dozens of animals here that people thought they could treat and failed! All because they did not want to go to a licensed vet! I'm not saying don't treat your own animals just make VERY sure you know what you are doing. Well i'm going off a little here ...another issue. There are very good reasons for the regulations... It is to stop abuse of these products! Yeah, you can argue the whole issue about farm animal use or abuse. It has gone on for years due to it being hidden from the general public. Why do you think the USDA has imposed so many new laws over the years! Most ranchers I know have an extensive background and treat many of their own animals HOWEVER THEY HAVE A VET ON CALL!!!! You can go into any feed store and get a 7 in 1 shot but you cannot give them a rabies shot! Why it's regulated and for a reason. If you want to argue that some of these practices are not cruel... how about farmers that tie a rubberband around hog testicals until they fall off? Many of the legitimate large scale breeders have a vet come in and do the proceedure very inexpensively. It was also pointed out that he has a high mortality rate why? I know several vets that perform the proceedure with 90% sucess rate? In light of this it seems like experimentation rather than surgery! In regards to wether animal cruelty charges would stand? Give me 30 minutes in front of a jury with some of the poor animals we have rescued and i'll guarantee they will see reptiles in a different light! Not only that but there have been several convictions related to reptiles here in Florida over the last 5 years. In one case-cruelty to animals, unsanitary conditions, failure to provide proper medical care. Another- the person was initially charged with feeding kittens to a reticulated python. That was the intial charge when we were called to the scene we found a 19 ft. reticulated python that weighed 38 pounds. The people at the scene were scared of it. I took it out of a SMALL dog carrier right in front of officials who were horrified! When I took it out it did not attempt to bite. It was so covered in mites that when I passed my hand over it my hand was black.I showedveryone there what they were and closed my hand. It was smeared with blood from the mites. It was at this point that the officials started changing their minds about charging the person with just cruelty in regards to only the kittens. When we picked the python up to remove it to another carrier the actual skin tore! Even people they who did not like snakes were agast! One lady said, I hate snakes but, I cannot see anyone doing that to any of God's creatures!" The charges stuck! 1 Yr in prison, 5 years probation! By the way it took over a year and alot of care but the Retic is now over 180 pounds last I heard and is healthy, happy and giving everyone a hard time! LOL's Maybe in some places people don't care about reptiles but, anywhere i'm present I slowly but, surely educate them. I know that's a little off topic but, it pertains to the issue of wether charges will "Stick". There are reasons for "regulations" in regards to the above issues. How many times have you heard of people possing as doctors and getting busted. Would YOU like to go under the knife of an unqualified person? I didn't think so...I have no problem with mommy giving you cold medicine! But, would she take your tonsils out?? Maybe she should go to the flea market for tools! Thanks Ray G. HBR

Thanks ray. That story about the retic is horrifying, but a least it is healthy now. You made some very good points. I hope this clears the air about it being illegal or not. All it takes is a little logical thoght.
Jesse Smith

ummm. "Why don't you guys go down to the gym and pump each other." Sorry, couldn't resist, can anyone tell me what movie that's from.

Jesse and Ray, Let me say this one more time real slooooowww. I don't agree w/ what is supposedly going on either. I'm just saying that I seriously doubt he will convicted of anything. Maybe pocession of a controlled substance, but that's about it.

What tools I can buy at the local flea market is this:
scalpels
forceps
needles

No, I can not buy the drugs there, but then again, I never said I could. However, if you read my post, you'll see that I said perhaps he was getting the stuff from his vet. Much the same way we get Baytril and other "controlled" substances. If he has a prescription for those drugs, then he's not in trouble. His vet may be, but the script gets him off the hook. If he doesn't, then he could be charged w/ pocession...

Ray, your retic story is great..... and what does that have to do with this??? I once rescued a tortoise from the side of the road after it had been hit by car. Then I spent all afternoon trying to find a shelter to take it. Then I put it in my truck drove 30 miles and dropped it off. Then I looked in the back of my truck and realized that there was poop and blood everywhere!!!! Holy crap! I must be expert now too!

Jesse, I don't need the phone number. It's pretty pointless now anyway. Do you really think he still has all this stuff laying around the house now that you posted all this stuff here? DUH! If you wanted to catch the guy, you should have kept your mouth shut (or your fingers as the case may be). "Gee, Jesse said he called the authorities. Duh ok, lets go see if I find some more snakes to cut up in my garage. While I'm at it, I'd better be sure to leave all those controlled substances out where the animal control officer can find them." Brilliant plan man, just plain brilliant!

One more thing, which procedure is he supposedly using? Is he removing the glands, or is he perhaps just cauterizing or ligating them? If he's doing either of the latter, then this "surgery" just got a whole lot simpler.

*possession

How come proof reading never works until AFTER you hit post?

The items you mentioned are indeed used in surgery and can be obtained anywhere. HOWEVER.......................What I am refering to is the entire set-up you would need to PROPERLY and HUMANELY do the surgery! Anesthestics and the equipment to administer them. (Regulated) Injections for local anesthetics.(Of course you could purchase the syringes and needles..didn't want to miss that!) How about we throw in the training and experience in here as well..just a thought. If he has the training and background and it's not just a garage chop shop so to speak... Laser related surgical tools..I.E. for cutting and or cauterizing during the procedure? REGULATED. There are many other items but, I'm tired of it at this point. I'm sure that any equipment and or regulated items in his possesion are long gone. I wish nothing ill to happen to him or his family but, it may be for the best that this came to light. Authorities were contacted long before this thread came about. Not by me...that is just the understanding that I have on the inside of the matter. Will anything be done?? Who knows?? Are we supposed to stand back and ignore these things when they happen? Do we say, "Well no one's going to get charged why bother".? If one case out of 12 gets prosecuted..it's a start. In regards to the matter of me bringing up the "Retic" story..... I was making a point. Again.. No the authorities were not going to charge that person up until that point. It takes someone to push it and change minds to get them to follow through. Glad you took the tortoise and did something with it! You have to understand that I completed the story not to get a "pat on the back" only save time when people would have asked what happened with it. If I was fishing for a pat on the back it wouldn't be in this manner. I could give you a list of things we've done... does that makes us angels? NO It' makes us human beings! The surgery being done is complete removal of the glands. Have you seen any of the Venomids with sunken heads? I agree that Jesse got a little enthusiastic about the post. However, something was being done long before he even came here. Venting maybe? Not a crime in my book but, if it was to get this person charged itwould have been premature. He was asked specifically if he was getting the meds from his vet etc. etc. The man doesn't even own a scale? This is an experienced/trained person? Gee.. I don't need a scale to weigh my snakes, medication, determine anesthetics etc. I didn't say you agreed Bryan. I guess I was just trying to make the point that the illegalities of the case will come to light as long as someone doesn't turn their heads in frustration and say, "Why bother..no one will do anything, they'll never be charged or convicted?"
If nothing else he may have gotten scared and ditched everything. He may notbe performing any more surgeries in the manner he has. Best case scenario... He will go to Vet school and put that well... talent to an intelligent and humane purpose. Thanks Ray G. HBR