Rick Miller---proof?

Time will tell and then if Ron does not like my resolution I will ask for others imput on the matter.

Al, I've already privately emailed a dozen or so breeders to get their input. I got 3 email responses and one phone call so far. All 4 have agreed that my offer to buy them back is all I'm required to do. I did this because I know I can sometimes be stubborn and not see the whole picture. I've been a businessman for many years and know for a fact that I am NO WAY responsible for lost revenue if they don't prove out. Al its not a matter of whether I like your resolution or not. The problem is it has to be fair. I didn't intentionally screw you and I was upfront about everything from the beginning. I thought we were friends but apparently $600.00 is more important than friendship. A good rule to live by.. Money comes and goes but a friend can last forever.
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Please remember, when I bought these hets Rick was not suspect at all. They were sold to me at a discount because Ron did not produce them and also because I purchased 1.2 other hets AND 5.0 other possible hets. There were a few other factors that set the price on these..

Al, Once again this is not what happened. You bought the het albinos and het ghost for the price I posted on Kingsnake. I gave you the deal on the 5 male poss hets because you bought the other hets, not vice versa. If you recall I only charged you $15.00 each for those 5 males. At first you declined my offer then decided to take it. I may be wrong here but I think you bought the albino hets first then came back and bought the ghost hets and the 5 males so it wasn't a package deal. I'm sure the date on the receipts will bare this out one way or the other. In any case the deal was for the 5 males.
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WOW. What if????????

My cat didn't eat it nor did it die.
Also, it wouldn't matter what happened to the ball market as I bought X snake for X dollars and it was NOT what it was sold as.....Get it?[/quote]

Al, I agree with this statement 100% and I'm willing to give you back x dollars. But I'm not paying you back more than you paid and if I pay the full $600.00 then I want the females back. Its not my job to pay for your breeding stock. This thread is 18 pages and theres only one person that agrees with your logic. That alone should tell you something. Sorry this had to go this route, Ron Radloff

I still do not see the logic in your resalution. Ron maybe I am being stubborn or just plain blind.You said that when you sold Al these hets you sold them at a discounted price because you did not produce them but you still sold them as 100% hets why not sell them as normals or just say I can not guarentee these hets because I did not produce them? And if someone wanted to roll the dice on them then they know the gamble or risk they are takeing? What you did was made up your own written guarentee stateing that they were 100% hets. This is the exact reason people getting into this hobby are going to stay clear from buying hets from the little guys it is going to ruin it for alot of people. There are alot of honest small breeders out there that will be stuck selling there hets at a reduced price because everyone is going to think its like gambleing buying hets from a small breeder. I just think that Al put alot of time and effort into these and he is not getting anywhere near what he deserves. And as far as the guy with all the scenerios like what if your cat ate the snakes those are all irrelevant scenarios the whole thing is Al did not get what he paid for. He bought 100% hets its that simple. Like I said before so someone could come in here and sell a ton of fake hets wait three years and return everyones money and you all would be happy with that? There has to be some kind of compensation rule to keep people from doing that .if Al gets his 300.00 back gives the females back Ron could easily turn around and sell those proven breeder females for 350.00-400.00 a piece so Ron makes even more money on this deal and Al gets f%$#% for a second time. Thats right lets reward somebody for selling fake hets where is the logic here guys? Paul

dealt with Ron and seen his actions before when a problem has arisen and he has shown himself to be an honest man with a great deal of integrity.
I think in this situation Ron has very little recourse other than purchase the animals back, although this seems like a paltry $um, I believe Al knew at the time he was getting the animals below market price because Ron was not absolutely certain they were hets.
Very unfortunate situation, but not all that uncommon.

Good morning... I did sell them as true hets. I just figured if they didn't prove out it would be easier to reimburse $600 than to reimburse $2500. Anyone that has ever gotten a guarantee will ask what it means. I told Al that it meant I would buy them back if they didn't prove out. I know Al claims I didn't say that but anyone that has sold to him (I bet) will say he asked a million questions, which he did with me. Selective memory is a B**TH but I know what my guarantee was. It doesn't matter if they prove out or don't prove out my guarantee remains the same. I never said that I would compensate for loses, only an idiot would do that. I told Al that the only thing that matters in this hobby is your name, keep it clean and people will trust you and buy from you with confidence. Well to be honest I think that card is being played here to see if I fold to keep my name clean. I didn't do anything wrong so I can tell you now I will not fold on this issue. I'd be curious to know what the guy who sold you the hets says when you ask for the compensation you want. Ron Radloff

Hello???

Am I missing something or is everyone putting the cart before the horse here? This argument may be moot. The eggs are still in the incubator.

Al, if they all turn out normal, that still isn't proof that your snake isn't a het. Five eggs, assuming they all hatch out, is not necessarily a large enough sample size. Many breeders' genetics guarantees require no visible morphs produced in two successive clutches before they kick in. But lets just say that everyone (meaning you and Ron) agree that if you have five normal appearing hatchlings the guarantee kicks in. He buys back the snake for the purchase price. You then sell the 100% guaranteed hets that you have produced and you make back all the feed and housing and opportunity costs that you are out. Everything was out in the open. You knew up front that the genetics were rocky at best, you can't expect more than that.

Of course, you may choose to keep the snake since it is now a proven breeder. In that case, you get the purchase price less some sum for whatever a normal would have been worth at the time.

Unless.....you want to give Ron a morph for free if the snake does prove out seeing as how he sold you the "possible 100% het" at less than market value. Would you be willing to do that? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Ron maybe a stand up guy but the problem I have according to the logic of many of you is I could sell hets (I would say possible but if I was guaranteed 100 percent hets than I would assume they are not possible hets) I can than wait for a few years for them to not prove out buy them back and basically save myself 3 years of raising them (paying for feeding, paying for electricity, taking up rack space, cleaning thier cages etc...) If they die before I have to buy them back then I still win because they won't be proved to be fake.

Ron is now aware that these maybe fake hets. He purchased these snakes from someone without a built reputation and I think at the very least he should return 500 (minus the 100 for the price of normal female balls) without getting the snakes back or like someone else stated if he wants the now breedable females back he should refund 150 percent to cover the hassle, his mistake and the cost for raising those baby females, but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't buy from someone who told me they guarantee my snakes genetics but will only buy them back for paid price after I spent several years caring for those snakes.
Mark

Originally Posted by Otter_23

Ron maybe a stand up guy but the problem I have according to the logic of many of you is I could sell hets (I would say possible but if I was guaranteed 100 percent hets than I would assume they are not possible hets) I can than wait for a few years for them to not prove out buy them back and basically save myself 3 years of raising them (paying for feeding, paying for electricity, taking up rack space, cleaning thier cages etc...) If they die before I have to buy them back then I still win because they won't be proved to be fake.

Ron is now aware that these maybe fake hets. He purchased these snakes from someone without a built reputation and I think at the very least he should return 500 (minus the 100 for the price of normal female balls) without getting the snakes back or like someone else stated if he wants the now breedable females back he should refund 150 percent to cover the hassle, his mistake and the cost for raising those baby females, but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't buy from someone who told me they guarantee my snakes genetics but will only buy them back for paid price after I spent several years caring for those snakes.
Mark

You could do that once. After that, if it happened again, your name would be mud and you would be all done.

In this case do you also give him the five hets that the female produced? (After all, you've been compensated in full by your logic for the cost of the snake and its care with 150% of the purchase price.) Don't those get figured in there somewhere? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the snake in question has produced something of value (the five het offspring) which I believe more than compensates for the cost of a couple hundred rats.

I can honestly tell you no one feels as bad about this as I do. I am losing what I considered a good friend over MONEY!!! I did not make a mistake Mark. I was up front and honest every step of the way. Lets look at it from my point of view. If they do prove out do you think I'll receive a surprise check in the mail. NO and I wouldn't expect it. My guarantee is fair. I buy the snakes back for what he paid for them . This way he is not out any cash. As for the time and money invested in raising them he keeps the offspring. If he produces 6.6 hets thats about $4000.00 to $5000.00 so he still comes out ahead. It would be like a breeder loan where my only payout was he raised my females. Had I sold them for the market price then I could see his point. But since I didn't take advantage of that I don't feel I should be rail roaded into an unfair settlement. I am more than willing to make things right but it has to be fair to me also. This got out of hand when Paul said I should refund Al's money in full and let him keep the females, thats not gonna happen and its not right. Ron Radloff

I do agree that it sucks to lose a friendship over this. You say that he gets to keep the hets he produced and still comes out ahead but he could have bought 50 dollar females and gotten the same result instead of buying 300 dollar normal females. Ron I wouldn't expect you to pay some outrageous fee because they didn't pan out but really if Al were to sell the 2 breedable females couldn't he make more than 300 a piece? So really what good is the guarantee? I realize you gave him a good deal but it was only if those two proved to be real. If they don't prove to be real than obviously Al paid for some extremely expensive normals. You talked about 100 percent hets not possible hets. The other thing I still don't get is you say he comes out ahead because his male bred to these will still produce hets. He doesn't come out ahead from anything those snakes did any normal 50 dollar female could produce those hets plus he still needs to cover the original fee he paid to get his male albino.
I don't know what Al is asking for compensation if the females don't prove out but I still think that at the least he should pay what a normal female would have cost (Because that's what they are) and be reimbursed the rest.

On the other hand Ron I believe you should go after Rick with both barrels for putting you in this situation. I don't think you should let this guy skate he is the reason for the thread. In my opinion he is the true bad guy. I don't see Ron or Al as bad guys and I hope this thread doesn't get so twisted that others think of them as that. Right now I see this as a discussion and getting different points of view. I do hope that in the end you both feel as satisfied as you can in this situation.

I guess what burns me the most is that two friends have to be in this situation because of someone being unethical. In the end if these snakes don't prove out Ron and Al could possibly lose a friendship, lose some money and lose some time working on an albino project. All because of a scammer. Is it worth it? What do friendships cost in today's market?
This is all my opinion I'm not saying it's right just how I view it from the information I have read.
Mark

"You could do that once. After that, if it happened again, your name would be mud and you would be all done."

Jim I would never do that but can you not see where many would if that guarantee were the standard? I could see many taking that loophole.

"In this case do you also give him the five hets that the female produced?"
Jim the hets produced by the female aren't hets because of the female they are hets because of the male. He could have purchased any normal for 50 bucks instead of 300 and got the same result.

"but the snake in question has produced something of value (the five het offspring) which I believe more than compensates for the cost of a couple hundred rats."
Once again not because of the female. A normal 50 dollar female could have produced the same result. He didn't buy hets to produce hets he bought hets and a homo male to produce albinos. He would have to wait 2 more years for the hets he produces (because of the male) to breed and if his overall albino plan had been to produce albino so he could then pair them off with pinstripes or something it puts his whole albino 2 years behind at the least and subsequently would suffer some loss due to the falling costs of morphs (meaning his albino pinstripe that he hoped to produce in 4 years would have sold at 40,000 but 2 years later because of more doing the same project they are only worth 25-30000 (just an example).

I agree he could have purchased a 50.00 female and produced the hets. But in reality he COULD NOT have a purchased a $300 100% het and produced an albino. There was a reason the price was so cheap, it was because I couldn't say beyond a reasonable doubt they were hets. My guarantee was that I'd buy them back if they weren't, NO IF'S, BUT'S, none of that. To me it was cut and dry from the start. Al produced albinos last year from a $50.00 poss het he bought so his albino male wasn't a waste due to the hets I sold him. I'm just hoping Al gets an albino and this goes away. I was one of the first to get them from Rick so I'm hoping I have the real deal. I do beleive he produced some hets but got caught up in the responses he received and made a bad decision. No one can find Rick so me going after him doesn't look very good. I know another person that bought 5 hets from Rick and even he said I'm right in my decision to buy back the females. Al is probably the only one with hets that is even getting an opportunity to be compensated. Well hopefully all works out for everyone here. Ron Radloff