Status check on health of this site.

I just got the following email, and it made me sit back and try to take stock of things here.....

I know you had to start charging but since you have there is really nothing to look at on fauna. It just a handful of the same people. There prices are never that great either.
I really used to like browsing the adds. I found lots of great buys in the past even in my own state now really nothing. I hope things get back to the old way

This is not the first nor only email I have gotten of this nature.

I've checked the statistics logs of the site and logins of registered members since January 1, 2007 till present (I began the paid requirement on posting classifieds on March 7, 2007) and it shows a steady decline in members logging in. From an average of around 1100 per day to around 850 per day now. Taking into account NEW registrations, the picture is likely even worse than the stats show.

New threads posted, which are a pretty good indication of actual ads posted, has dropped from a high in January of 1884 threads to 932 in April, to a peak in August of 1215 and hitting 941 so far this month of October.

Even more damning is when I look at total posts per month. January, 2007 showed 13,576 posts made that month, which has steadily declined to a mere 6,516 for this month of October. February showed a slight decline of 11,097 posts, but plummeted sharply in March to only 8,741 posts for that month. And posts have steadily declined since then to the current level.

Obviously things do not bode well for the future of this site.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point. I was reluctant from the start to do this, but many people offered this as a suggestion and I felt it was just being hard headed on my part to fight it. No, I am not trying to make a claim as to being right or wrong about this, just simply posting the facts and trying to see what the cards laying on the table are telling me.

Quite simply put, is participation in the classified sections here just a matter of being free, or being dead?

The paid requirement has been running for nearly 8 months now. The question is, IS it wise to continue?

So yes, I am soliciting opinions on this. The picture I see does not look good at all, but maybe there are broader issues as well.

Speaking from my own position.....new to keeping and breeding snakes.

I feel the payment requirement for posting in the classifieds might put a hamper on the hobbyist breeders. Those people who have a single pair or two of reptiles that they have bred and are not looking to turn it into a business, might feel that their hobby has to become a business in order to cover the subscription fee. Now, I know it's not all that expensive, but if you only produce a few babies a year, some might not be up to rationalizing the fee to sell on Fauna.

I have tossed this idea around quite a bit myself. Do I pay to sell here, knowing the snakes will go to someone that has a true interest in reptiles...or try my hand with local pet stores, where the buyer is likely to be an impulse buyer or ignorant to the requirement for properly caring for a reptile. (I am aware that these stereotypes do not hold true for all people in either arena.)

Also, with the current setup, people have to pay in order to advertise for wanted animals. I feel this also impedes the growth of individuals and the overall herp culture and hobby. If I'm looking for one specific animal to complete or compliment my collection, why do I need to pay to inquire about any available animals?

I'm not sure how others feel, so I open the floor to further discussion.

Originally Posted by 99Vengeur

Speaking from my own position.....new to keeping and breeding snakes.

I feel the payment requirement for posting in the classifieds might put a hamper on the hobbyist breeders. Those people who have a single pair or two of reptiles that they have bred and are not looking to turn it into a business, might feel that their hobby has to become a business in order to cover the subscription fee. Now, I know it's not all that expensive, but if you only produce a few babies a year, some might not be up to rationalizing the fee to sell on Fauna.

I have tossed this idea around quite a bit myself. Do I pay to sell here, knowing the snakes will go to someone that has a true interest in reptiles...or try my hand with local pet stores, where the buyer is likely to be an impulse buyer or ignorant to the requirement for properly caring for a reptile. (I am aware that these stereotypes do not hold true for all people in either arena.)

Also, with the current setup, people have to pay in order to advertise for wanted animals. I feel this also impedes the growth of individuals and the overall herp culture and hobby. If I'm looking for one specific animal to complete or compliment my collection, why do I need to pay to inquire about any available animals?

I'm not sure how others feel, so I open the floor to further discussion.

While I understand your point - there are other issues that come into play. Sure, everybody likes to get something for nothing...but free classifieds come at a cost, too. More scam ads, for example. The cost of advertising here is a pittance...and the contributing membership offers other perquisites that come along with that $25/yr.
For the hobbiest producing a few clutches a year - particularly snakes - there is also the issue of preparedness to ship. If the $25/yr fee cannot be justified to advertise the snakes, how likely is it that the person (this is not directed at you, btw) will be shipping in a manner that meets "industry standards" and is in compliance with both Federal regulations and the carrier's TOS? Sure, one can advertise for local pickup only...but there are probably other venues better suited to attracting local buyers.

Rich, I understand the quandary...but, as usual, there is no perfect answer. I think that the impact of the paid classifieds has been largely positive, though I suspect that there are a number of people that just chose to take their advertising elsewhere (I wonder how many of them balked at $25/yr here, and then turned around and paid $20 for a month at KS). Anyway - assuming that the post/thread count numbers are reflective of the site as a whole, the relative decrease in discussion forum posts could explain a lot of it. Are the discussion forums suffering because people don't want to pay to advertise??? I don't think to any great extent...but that is based on nothing more than opinion.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point.

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

I think it is important to look at the pluses and minuses. Is a lower post count actually a bad thing when it comes to the quality of the advertisers and the overall heath of the site along with the bottom-line profitability here?

I think it is important to note that some (not I) have only contributed here for the ability to post in the classifieds. I guess one of the questions you could ask is if that amount of contributors just to post classifieds out-ways less post counts? Would you have less paid contributors if you dropped the fee or would it spark a renewed interest? If you dropped the fee would those seeking free classifieds actually benefit the site in contributions down the road?

It would be interesting to know if the members at the contributing membership level in January is less or more now? How many of them would actually renew if the classifieds were free?

And also, you would have to way some of the other problems we faced with the higher post counts.

The alternative classifieds section (photopost) has been restricted to paid membership for a while now. For some reason, that section was being heavily targeted by spammers. That paid membership restriction pretty much ended that problem there.

This is now expanding that requirement to include the forum based classifieds as well.

Obviously things do not bode well for the future of this site.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point.

This was the question posed in Rich's initial post on this thread.

*sigh* I guess I need to re-address this issue of dealing with rampant off topic posting in threads. I really hate to have to implement rules that have so much gray area associated with it, but it's pretty damned obvious that it is needed around here.

100 + posts later, this is the information Rich has.

If you went through this thread and deleted every post that didn't address the real questions asked in the first post, how many would be left?

I, too, have been here for awhile (5 years or so?) but post less and less.... for many reasons.....NONE of which are relevant to this thread, which is asking about the ramifications of paid classifieds.

Originally Posted by ms_terese

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

Preferred by whom? The older herpers? Some of the newer herpers/people seem to have as difficult a time as I do trying to navigate those ads.

Originally Posted by ms_terese

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

Since the statistics code on this site does not give me the ability to be able to determine such a comparison, then I have nothing to go on concerning facts to agree nor disagree with your statement. Posting in anywhere other than the BOI has always been weak on this site and it is my opinion that the discussion forums are not the reason people come here. That is a fight that I have given up on. As for posting on the BOI, it is my impression that this has increased, if anything. So in effect, the only forums on this site that appear to be any attraction at all to people would have to be those related to business aspects of the industry. It is my opinion that I could completely remove all general topic discussion forums from this site and it would not make much difference at all in ACTIVE participation by those members visiting here.

Just for fun, I ran the stats program going back to the end of 2004 (which is as far as I can get stats, since an upgrade at that time wiped out earlier logs) just to see if any trends can be determined. Here's a graph of POSTS made monthly in that timeframe:



And as for THREADS started in that time period, here's the graph of that data:



So what are they telling me? Obviously humps and valleys in traffic. But what were the triggers for the changes? I'm sure the info is here, for anyone willing to dig in and find out...... Quite likely the slumps are triggered by implementing a fee for something or another. But perhaps there are other factors involved as well.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

So what are they telling me?

One thing I suspected before ever looking at your charts, and the charts did confirm what I suspected......

The Winter months are going to have more posts/threads simply because those of us up North are inside a lot more and at our PCs a lot more when it gets cold out.