Evan Stahl - Sent Me Sick Pine Snakes

Originally Posted by snakesareawesome

Regarding exotic vets, I think the main reason people do not use them have little to do with competency and a lot to do with being cheap. With sick animals, the vet visit is not cheap, the medicines are not cheap, necropsy here costs 65$ but the bloodwork, trach washes, etc can add up. However, if you want to further the advancement of reptile medicine, we need to do these things to explain what has happened.

I lost a green tree python several years back. I was out of town for a funeral, and she appeared to have a respiratory infection when I got home. I took her to the ER, because I got home on a Sunday.

She had some wheezing, so the vet prescribed Baytril injections (they were out of ceftazidime, a preferred medication). She died the next day. I took her to my regular herp vet for a necropsy, and we decided to have individual histological exams done on internal organs, as well as cultures of respiratory fluids.

When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. I paid $3k for that particular snake, and wanted to know why she died. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. If a pre-existing condition were found, the buyer could reasonably expect to be reimbursed for the cost of the animal, but the necropsy expense is on them. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?

Just some additional thoughts on the matter.

Kathy

Originally Posted by Insomniac101

I lost a green tree python several years back. I was out of town for a funeral, and she appeared to have a respiratory infection when I got home. I took her to the ER, because I got home on a Sunday.

She had some wheezing, so the vet prescribed Baytril injections (they were out of ceftazidime, a preferred medication). She died the next day. I took her to my regular herp vet for a necropsy, and we decided to have individual histological exams done on internal organs, as well as cultures of respiratory fluids.

When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. I paid $3k for that particular snake, and wanted to know why she died. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. If a pre-existing condition were found, the buyer could reasonably expect to be reimbursed for the cost of the animal, but the necropsy expense is on them. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?

Just some additional thoughts on the matter.

Kathy

I've had 2 necropsies done at 2 different times. The first snake died from something akin to rabies (same principle) ... samples were sent to a university in Florida, it was never determined exactly what virus it died from.

The other was undetermined causes, but likely fatty liver disease (rescued snake).

These were performed years ago, so I'm not sure on the cost now, but they were over $500 each.

Originally Posted by Insomniac101

When everything was done, I spent over $700 for the necropsy. I only had it done because I had several high-end chondros in my collection, and I was worried about something contagious. The results were indeterminate.

People have suggested that the OP should've had a necropsy done. That kind of expense just isn't feasible for most people. Who can afford to spend hundreds, to only be reimbursed for a fraction of that cost?

I agree .... the last necropsy I had done was a surprised death of a high end rattlesnake and did it because I had others and was worried about something spreading through the collection. I think I spent close to $700 also and that was at least 12 years ago qnd resuklts were inconclusive. And this was done by a great herp vet , not someone who didn't know exoctics.

Spending $700. on a baby pinesnake would be ridiculous when you can replace it for about $100.00 . You aren't talking abouty the family dog where you'll do everything possible for it.

The OP messed up hesitating on using the flagyl and feeding too soon after the reguritation.

There are two different priced necropsy prices in most cases, there is a gross and then one that encompasses the gross but includes histopathology. In general it is the histopathology that bumps up the price of the necropsy as it requires taking samples, preparing them and having a veterinary pathologist read them for evidence (and this can be many slides from one animal). A gross necropsy is going to look for macrocauses of death, things like abscesses without a determination of species in the abscess, fatty liver, broken bones etc but a lot of vets send the animal out for a gross necropsy which can significantly increase the cost of the necropsy.

In general the price does not have to be along those lines as PCR can be done at a significantly reduced cost for a wide number of diseases ranging from inclusion body disease (IBD), to Cryptosporidium for about $18 a test (plus shipping of samples) by independent companies. See http://www.vetdna.com/test-type/reptiles for a list at one company.

Most PCR tests can be run on a cloacal, or oral swab as well as possibly on a fecal (contact the company for details on sampling) so there is a lot less of a reason to not quarantine and determine what is present in a collection before issues happen.

some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by EdwardK

There are two different priced necropsy prices in most cases, there is a gross and then one that encompasses the gross but includes histopathology. In general it is the histopathology that bumps up the price of the necropsy as it requires taking samples, preparing them and having a veterinary pathologist read them for evidence (and this can be many slides from one animal). A gross necropsy is going to look for macrocauses of death, things like abscesses without a determination of species in the abscess, fatty liver, broken bones etc but a lot of vets send the animal out for a gross necropsy which can significantly increase the cost of the necropsy.

In general the price does not have to be along those lines as PCR can be done at a significantly reduced cost for a wide number of diseases ranging from inclusion body disease (IBD), to Cryptosporidium for about $18 a test (plus shipping of samples) by independent companies. See http://www.vetdna.com/test-type/reptiles for a list at one company.

Most PCR tests can be run on a cloacal, or oral swab as well as possibly on a fecal (contact the company for details on sampling) so there is a lot less of a reason to not quarantine and determine what is present in a collection before issues happen.

That's a good point, as I had a boa that passed earlier this year. Her bloodwork had been off slightly for a while. The vet found tumors/cancer in her stomach, liver, and kidneys so we didn't worry about PCR tests so the cost was nominal. I wanted to ensure she had nothing contagious as she was in a stack of enclosures in my reptile room with other boas and retics, plus hatchling ball pythons for sale.

Also, unless I had necro results indicating that the snake was sick and likely had been for some time, I would not start a BOI thread stating that the person who had recently sold it to me sent me a sick animal.

Originally Posted by bcr229

Also, unless I had necro results indicating that the snake was sick and likely had been for some time, I would not start a BOI thread stating that the person who had recently sold it to me sent me a sick animal.

My point exactly. The animals didn't show signs of illness until a month in. While the problem could have been on Mr. Stahl's end, there's no evidence. Combine that with the re-feeding directly after a regurge and there's vast room for doubt.

My experience with Evan was years ago and I am glad I didn’t buy from him. He was a jerk and arrogant. I don’t have the emails we exchanged as it was years ago but this guy had terrible customer service. I won’t buy from him for that reason alone.

You never purchased an animal from me but still want to badmouth me and tell people not to buy from me? You never bought anything from me but my customer service was bad? You offer no evidence or proof of course. Doesn't this violate the rules of this board? Just stupid and petty.

Correct I didn’t buy from you because you where an arrogant jerk to me. Plenty off other people that didn’t treat me like you did. I thought my experience with you should be shared because I was a potential customer until you were a jerk. Wish I could find the emails to show how much of a jerk you were. So get but hurt Evan. I DONT CARE.

This is not facebook. You are trying to hurt my business and you never made a purchase and offer no evidence.