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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. On 02-02-2020 the BOI will be deleted.

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Old 11-01-2017, 05:55 PM   #11
Originally Posted by cbaker81 View Post
I purchased 2 baby albino southern pinesnakes from Evan Stahl Reptiles and received them on August the 24th. Both ate small meals a week after arrival and then were fed weekly after that. On 9/7 the male regurgitated its meal, held down its meal on 9/14, then died on 9/19.

Originally Posted by evansnakes View Post

I then did not hear back from him for a month. In that timw he not only did not take my advice but did not take it to a vet, have a culture done or anything else. His idea was after a snake regurgitate it should then be fed every dew days. No concern for the stress on the animal.
OP, you apparently did no research, did not go to or even call a vet. It appears that the sum total of your effort to address the regurge was to complain the the seller.
OP, these critters are living things. It is perfectly OK to ask questions of an experienced herper, but the bottom line is that you need to consult a vet if illness persists.

Originally Posted by evansnakes View Post
He also has never sent me any pics or evidence that the male died.
OP this is a reasonable request. Besides emails, please post a pic of the deceased snake.
Old 11-01-2017, 06:22 PM   #12
It is totally inappropriate to feed a snake seven days after a regurge. That alone could have killed it. OP, take your remaining snake to the vet.
Old 11-01-2017, 06:24 PM   #13
Also, a necropsy should have been dong on the male. If you want to try to get money back from a seller 25 days after you receive the animal, you should have proof that the snake was ill prior to you receiving it. And he definitely doesn't owe you a dime if you can't prove the snake is dead.
Old 11-01-2017, 06:47 PM   #14
Originally Posted by elena View Post
It is totally inappropriate to feed a snake seven days after a regurge. That alone could have killed it. OP, take your remaining snake to the vet.
I agree.

Anything could've contributed to the snake's regurgitation, including but not limited to: stress, low temperatures, improper prey size, illness.

If I read the original post correctly, the male regurgitated 14 days after purchase, at that time the OP didn't contact the seller or a vet. If he had, Evan could've told him about the Flagyl then and advised no to feed for at least 2 weeks.
Old 11-01-2017, 07:00 PM   #15
Even if there was something wrong with that snake before purchase, the OP bears at least partial responsibility for failing to deal with the regurge properly. IMO, without a necropsy proving that the snake was ill before purchase, Mr. Stahl is in the clear. A health guarantee (if one was provided) is rarely indefinite. Mr. Stahl, what were your TOS on this transaction? Did you clearly communicate them to the buyer?
Old 11-01-2017, 11:54 PM   #16
I hope you can get that female to the vet as she definitely needs to see one. Were these two snakes ever in the same habitat? I wonder if she caught whatever the male had (if he had something contagious).
Old 11-02-2017, 05:55 PM   #17
Here are a couple images of the frozen male.

I am not asking for arbitration by the peers here nor did I request my money back from Evan.

I am simply posting my experience and opinion of the transaction and the health of the snakes.

The facts that both snakes are/were going through the same symptoms while the environmental factors remain perfect and the exact same as my other baby pines who are all thriving point to illness.

I have 18 pines in my collection currently and have never experienced anything like this. They are usually greedy pigs who grow like weeds.

For Evan tell me to treat the snakes for disease with Flagyl, sight unseen and with so little data, throws up red flags for me.

I did not post this to argue with Evan or to spend all my days in this forum. I have been a fauna member since 2005 and I have not ever had to post a negative review of a seller/company before.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20171102_174150[1].jpg (150.6 KB, 547 views)
File Type: jpg 20171102_174127[1].jpg (181.8 KB, 553 views)
Old 11-02-2017, 06:44 PM   #18
With 18 others, you are not a novice to pine snakes, so I feel no need to question your husbandry.

However, it could be environmental stress, especially if Evan kept them in tubs and you keep them in enclosures or terrariums.

I still advise a vet visit for the female.
Old 11-02-2017, 10:39 PM   #19
I personally don't feel that the OP deserves a free pass on husbandry, due to the mismanagement of the regurge. Just because the OP has a large number of pine snakes, does not mean they are managed correctly. Since a necropsy is out (the male has been frozen). the only way to determine fault is for the female to go to the vet, which the OP should do anyway for the health of the animal.
Old 11-03-2017, 01:21 AM   #20
Threads like this one make me wonder why anyone would bother to share their experience. This OP just posted a review of his experience and said he was dissatisfied with his purchase. He didn’t request a refund or make any demands of the seller in his post.
He's immediately confronted by a couple posters questioning his husbandry and declaring that if the snake has parasites it is due to his poor husbandry, improper quarantine, etc. That is followed up with statements that he should have got a necropsy and he should have taken the animal to the vet immediately.
The cost of the necropsy and the cost of a vet visit including an exam, fecal flotation, fecal direct smear test and meds would have far exceeded the cost of these snakes. Since the OP was also told that he should have fasted the snakes for weeks he probably would need to pay for a cloacal wash as well in order to get stool for a diagnosis. I’ve read enough threads on this site over the last 15 years to know that if the OP had decided to do this he would be told that he made the decision to incur these costs and the seller is only responsible for the cost of the snakes.
I don’t think that the OP or the seller presented enough evidence to prove fault but I think the most likely scenario is that the snakes had a protozoan infection prior to the sale but may not have been symptomatic yet. The stress of shipping and a change in environment probably weakened the animal’s immune system and caused the baby snakes to decline quickly. This would explain why the seller may not have been aware of any illness and the OP has not noticed illness with any of the other animals that he owns that were not in contact with these snakes.
I hope the other snake pulls through for you.

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