Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

Another question, has either of these parents that when paired together produced witblits, been bred to another dragon? Has the mother ever been paired with a different male, or the father ever paired with a different female? Is this for sure recessive?

That is true. Some of those breedings can be bad but in order to figure out what trait this is one has to do it. Obviously if those babies are any weaker than what our standards are then they will be euthanased. I don't think after one 'inbreeding' there will be any problems though.

I said the morphs is SA are limited, not the gene pool. I think the gene pool here is most likely more vigourous than that of other countries. We have many completely unrelated animals to do some breedings with.

No we are not 100% sure if this trait is recessive. That is why we will need to do more breedings. It might be a dominant gene..!? A similar patternless morph we have has been proved to be recessive. It might be or might not.

Quite simply: If I breed a male witblits to his het mother and get 50% witblits babies then we are working with a recesive gene.

First I want to say congrats on the witblits. They are really unique.
I wanted to add my opion on some of the replies.
I do lean towards more of what Chris Allen has been posting as far as my opinion with the genetics go.

The biggest wow factor to me is the price on these guys when only a handful have been produced and genetics are not understood on them yet. I would have worked with some other breeders and kept it under wraps for a while before I made them public. Not meant rude just my and only my opinion.

I do like all dragon morphs and have a really fun time with all the extreme genetics. I choose to work with some over others because of the health and ease of raising the babies over some certain morphs. I do not dislike any morph but I want a more hardy and robust baby over babies that are a pain to raise.
I have no clue what the witblits are like because I do not own one but I have to say all breeders of the trendier morphs know exactly what I mean with some of the so called "bling" morph babies can be a pain in the toosh to keep a plump look about them. It has nothing to do with a so called runt in the clutch. It has to do with genetics and no reason to deny that. Its going to happen when playing with genetics as much as we do. Some breeders do an excellent job of making a morph healthier and some do not take the time.

I have two female clutchmates off a 21 inch translucent male (yes there is larger trans out there) he is over 700 grams(supposably- never seen with my own eyes). He is a very large citrus trans but both babies are now almost a year and extremely small for thier age. So breeding size to get size does not always ensure size. Not to mention like the large dad these girls are a pain to keep plump. The het trans sister is more hardy then the translucent sister but both are to small for my taste. I let go most of what I buy or trade for because I do not like the size reguardless of the color.

If the babies stress a lot while raising them then I do not breed those either. I think genetics play a role in all of this and ensuring a well rounded dragon even with personality.

I want to keep up with the witblits as I find it interesting but as far as dishing out that kind of money on a morph that not much is known about is not in my agenda. If they had a few generations on this morph and knew exactly how to breed it and then busted out with 4 grand for a dragon they could be definite about then maybe but honestly no dragon is worth that in my book.
Unfortunately when it hits the US market the value depreciates instantly because we breed like mad. They will only have a high dollar value for a short time.
JMO.

My spell check is not working so my apologies.

Originally Posted by chris allen

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

Originally Posted by KelliH

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

To a point certainly. Most now days are not random genetic mutations. I doubt a hypo trans leatherback would ever randomly pop up.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

I'm not talking about a simple hypo, but yet like what was said earlier....there were problems with hypos too at one time(some serious issues I saw for my own eyes and was kept under wraps by some of the biggest). People see little hints of whats being produced. Patches of odd skin, missing spikes, odd looking toes, the list goes on and on....

It seems like in certain places shortcuts are being taken and the dragons suffer. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by witblits

That is true. Some of those breedings can be bad but in order to figure out what trait this is one has to do it. Obviously if those babies are any weaker than what our standards are then they will be euthanased. I don't think after one 'inbreeding' there will be any problems though.

I said the morphs is SA are limited, not the gene pool. I think the gene pool here is most likely more vigourous than that of other countries. We have many completely unrelated animals to do some breedings with.

No we are not 100% sure if this trait is recessive. That is why we will need to do more breedings. It might be a dominant gene..!? A similar patternless morph we have has been proved to be recessive. It might be or might not.

Quite simply: If I breed a male witblits to his het mother and get 50% witblits babies then we are working with a recesive gene.

Im not sure if I misunderstood, but this is what you posted
"Well because I am in South Africa... I do not have the huge gene pool that the guys from America and Europe have."

Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.

Originally Posted by spyder79

first off i was not directing my comment specifically at you though it seems you took it as such. I was making a broad statement. And your weight reference for a single dragon that bloodbank had is just my point. That is what the only one you have heard of that big. Years ago the average was 450-500grams and 20+ inches and it has slowly went further and further down to where now many people have full grown "healthy" adults that are 16 inches and in the 300 gram range. I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do. Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior. Your post was in no way a flame it just shows your difference of opinion. Goes back to a PM you and me exchanged where I said I never plan to breed trans or leathers and you said that you have to stay with the times. I personally think there will always be a place for large bodied nicely colored "normals" as they are called and the miniturized "designer morphs" will be the ones the eventually go back to taking the back burner.

You say animals that were inbred are small and weak, what about leucistic? there a recessive trait, and there length was 26 - 27 plus inches and 500-600 plus gram animals.
Also Do you consider a scaleless snake to be genetically inferior??? I know i do. And fact is they have been found in the wild. Book title: Bio medical-surgical aspects of captive reptile husbandry. Author: Peter Linch. Page 400 In north California Dr. Nathan Cohen found a scaleless gopher snake that was well into sexual maturity. So there is a "genetically inferior" animal found in the wild surviving and thriving!!!

Originally Posted by chris allen

So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.

Good point Chris they will have to be inbred to find out. But so was the translucent gene. You breed/sell these animals but also seems like your bashing them cause there "weak inbreeds". I am confused. If this is your opinion on these animals why do you breed and re-sell them?

Originally Posted by chris allen

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

Why does a genetic mutation have to be inbred? there are genetic mutations with people. are you saying those people are inbred??? Genetic mutations happens some of the time with everything that lives and thrives. So why when its happening here with dragons there considered obvious inbreds?
You want inbreds. go to the people who breed there snakes back to there parents. Talk to them about inbreeding.

You an Brian are also talking about size this and that. how about people. There are 5 ft 90 lb. Asian people and there are 7 ft 250 lb Germans.( no offense to any ethnic group just using this as an example.) Because the German is taller and bigger does that means he's healthier? Is a 12 ft snake healthier than a 6 ft snake? Maybe a better definition of "health" needs to be defined?

Originally Posted by chris allen

Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.

Chris i have alot of respect for you and no way picking a fight/arguement, but your killing me. The translucent gene is still one of the hardest genes to work with, and your breeding and then selling them.. Can you say your translucent hatchlings do as well as your normals or other morph hatchlings? So why would you be so hard on beardeds thriving, and still breeding that gene?