The BOI will be coming to an end on 02-02-2020

Originally Posted by WebSlave

I am also speculating that the classifieds sections may quickly become a free for all as people attempt to take BOI style issues and inject them into classified ad threads. This will not be allowed. It has never really ever been allowed, but I foresee that becoming a bigger problem in the future.

In the past, pointing out ads that seem to be scams by posting a relevant reply in the ad has not been disallowed. Today, for instance, a Google of a phone number in an odd sounding bearded dragon ad showed the poster also selling English bulldog puppies for $100 and other questionable ventures.

How do you want to handle such ads?

Originally Posted by Lucille

In the past, pointing out ads that seem to be scams by posting a relevant reply in the ad has not been disallowed. Today, for instance, a Google of a phone number in an odd sounding bearded dragon ad showed the poster also selling English bulldog puppies for $100 and other questionable ventures.

How do you want to handle such ads?

I would suggest just reporting the ad and cite your suspicions. Normally one of the moderators will take a look at the notice we get and take whatever action seems to be appropriate. And by "appropriate" I mean that the author has to be violating a rule here, which in many such cases means that they are using a false location and/or name. If they are not violating one of the rules of the site, our hands will be pretty much tied.

So, that being said, I do expect things to get difficult when people claim to be scammed by someone selling here. Removal of the BOI will obviously close off an avenue for members to actively do something about such things here. Unfortunate, but that is what we will be left with.

But I am open to realistic suggestions.

i must say i am very sad to see the BOI go. i may not be the most active member on the site, and will admit that i have been afk for quite some time, but that was due to some unfortunate life events. when i first joined the forums i had every intent on becoming a contributing member as my budget allowed and my hobby of breeding reptiles was able to grow and become more successful. yeah i was just an 18yr old with crazy ambitions but this site actually helped me get off the ground, and the BOI definitely saved me a lot of money, time, and headache.

and now here i am ready to get back into the game and grind that this amazing hobby is and i find out my favorite site on all the internet is having to go thru this. its a shame really. i wish i could have been on here all those years, and been a better supporter of my hobby.

after reading this thread, my opinion is that this is going to hurt new members, and those like myself who are trying to establish themselves as breeders in the community, while those who already have some time under their belts are reputable and recommended, and have become known names here will prosper greatly from this. not to say that’s a bad thing, they put in their hard work and time and deserve to benefit from that. i just feel
its gonna be hard for anyone to establish themselves with this change.

since its all about legality and potentially damaging recourse to the site as a whole, what about a place where someone could leave say a 60 character post of a transaction with a member on the site? or even have preset phrases to choose from. could be something as simple as the person typing in the sellers name, and then they are prompted to select up to 3 phrases to describe their transaction with said member. simple stuff like “great seller” “great experience” “great buyer” “will do business with again” highly recommend” or things like “bad experience” “would not recommend” “potential scam” “would not recommend”
then if someone searches the username, those posts pop up and people can see good/bad experiences with a potential buyer/seller and it doesnt get all muddy with how in depth and lengthy the BOI was. the research still falls in the hands of the individual, but there is a place to do some surface investigation. you could disable replies to messages, but instead have a thumbs up or thumbs down button for others to click if they have also had the same or the opposite interaction with someone. members can then pm other members for greater details on their interactions/transactions.
im not sure if that’s a valid option, but if it works it works. i feel like a “BOI type” of place is needed in an environment like this, even if its super vague. otherwise i feel like buying and selling online is gonna become more of a hassle and people will disappear and stop coming here.

i just love this site and its been good to me in the past and i’ve recommended it to everyone i had the opportunity to. i just want to see it do well, and show it to my kids one day and tell them its where i started my journey of breeding reptiles and the amazing community these forums hold within. ultimately though, it’s Rich’s decision, and his hide to cover so whatever you decide to do we just have to support as best we can.

Originally Posted by the gecko geek

i must say i am very sad to see the BOI go. i may not be the most active member on the site, and will admit that i have been afk for quite some time, but that was due to some unfortunate life events. when i first joined the forums i had every intent on becoming a contributing member as my budget allowed and my hobby of breeding reptiles was able to grow and become more successful. yeah i was just an 18yr old with crazy ambitions but this site actually helped me get off the ground, and the BOI definitely saved me a lot of money, time, and headache.

and now here i am ready to get back into the game and grind that this amazing hobby is and i find out my favorite site on all the internet is having to go thru this. its a shame really. i wish i could have been on here all those years, and been a better supporter of my hobby.

after reading this thread, my opinion is that this is going to hurt new members, and those like myself who are trying to establish themselves as breeders in the community, while those who already have some time under their belts are reputable and recommended, and have become known names here will prosper greatly from this. not to say that’s a bad thing, they put in their hard work and time and deserve to benefit from that. i just feel
its gonna be hard for anyone to establish themselves with this change.

since its all about legality and potentially damaging recourse to the site as a whole, what about a place where someone could leave say a 60 character post of a transaction with a member on the site? or even have preset phrases to choose from. could be something as simple as the person typing in the sellers name, and then they are prompted to select up to 3 phrases to describe their transaction with said member. simple stuff like “great seller” “great experience” “great buyer” “will do business with again” highly recommend” or things like “bad experience” “would not recommend” “potential scam” “would not recommend”
then if someone searches the username, those posts pop up and people can see good/bad experiences with a potential buyer/seller and it doesnt get all muddy with how in depth and lengthy the BOI was. the research still falls in the hands of the individual, but there is a place to do some surface investigation. you could disable replies to messages, but instead have a thumbs up or thumbs down button for others to click if they have also had the same or the opposite interaction with someone. members can then pm other members for greater details on their interactions/transactions.
im not sure if that’s a valid option, but if it works it works. i feel like a “BOI type” of place is needed in an environment like this, even if its super vague. otherwise i feel like buying and selling online is gonna become more of a hassle and people will disappear and stop coming here.

i just love this site and its been good to me in the past and i’ve recommended it to everyone i had the opportunity to. i just want to see it do well, and show it to my kids one day and tell them its where i started my journey of breeding reptiles and the amazing community these forums hold within. ultimately though, it’s Rich’s decision, and his hide to cover so whatever you decide to do we just have to support as best we can.

I appreciate your concerns, Jordan. Much of what you are suggesting as an alternative to the BOI sounds a lot like what the Trader's Ratings is already providing. And quite honestly, if that appears to be putting me in the same predicament as the BOI did concerning threats of lawsuits and such, it too will just go away. Pretty much all such discussions, even brief ones, are going to stop on this site come 02-02-2020.

Beyond that, anything else being suggested would likely require custom programming to implement. So I do have to ponder the question of why would I want to throw money and effort at implementing something to take the place of a function that is being discontinued because of lack of support by the hobby/industry? Would that make much sense to consider? I certainly have no illusions of such implementation regaining that lost support, so why bother? What would be the point that would neuter the point behind the reasoning for closing down the BOI? Implementing something that would continue the liability of the BOI would just be nonsensical on my part, wouldn't it? Someone saying "Joe Blow is a lying, cheating scammer" in 60 characters or less would create just as much liability as someone saying it in 2,000 characters. Thanks, but no thanks.

I have been saying for years now that the BOI needed the help and support of the membership in order to survive. Well, this weakness I foresaw then has now come to a head, and we are right here now because my statements were either not believed, not understood, or the majority of the people just don't give a crap either way about it. So I simply decided that it is time for ME to stop giving a crap as well. If that is illogical and unreasonable on my part, then please somebody, explain to me why that is.

I doubt anyone here is more disappointed than I am about closing the BOI. But the hobby/industry is speaking and I am finally listening to the narrative I have been hearing for quite a while now, and just studiously ignored. I was continually hopeful that things would get better. Eventually. That hope has ended.

I am really sorry that some of you will feel a loss and disappointment at the closing of the BOI, but you apparently are in a very small minority that is just not enough for me to keep the life support running.

Out of curiosity.. on the legality aspect... how are other companies/websites getting away with allowing un-policed reviews of various businesses, products, store fronts, even individuals in some cases. Think as big as google or amazon all the way down to a review section on any website..or even facebook. Do they face the same legal consequences potentially as this site has and are just simply taking on risk? Just asking for my own understanding since obviously you have been having to deal with this directly for so many years.

Well, I have not inquired with any other entity about how they handle the legal aspects of a BOI type environment under their control and responsibility. So I don't know what their perspective is of the risk they have undertaken. But I have conferred with at least 3 attorneys about what the best way SHOULD be, and that is how I run this site.

Unless the smaller entities have explored their potential liability and risk with an attorney, then my guess is that they are unaware of any actual legal liability and risk they are exposing themselves to. And that is even ignoring the fact that even legally crossing all your "T"s and dotting every "I" can still get you placed in the position of becoming a defendant in a baseless lawsuit. Even being legally defensible in every aspect does not give you a free pass in court. You STILL have to pay an attorney to defend your position.

My guess is that MANY have just looked at this site, seen how long I have survived running it, and just think that anyone can do it in any way they see fit. Perhaps in methods that they think is even better, perhaps not understanding that the way I run the BOI is because my opinion (based on actual legal advice) is that it is the best legally prudent way to do so. So some might just be completely ignorant of the risk they are undertaking.

Unless such entities can (and want to) afford to go to court upon any such eventuality of an actual filed lawsuit, which I am sure the large entities can, then such BOI style forums will only exist up till the very first credible lawsuit threat. The question, of course, will be whether or not the owners of such entities will choose to spend the money to defend someone else's ability to post material that will place the owner in such a position. I hope they have at least thought this through thoroughly, and even conferred with an attorney.

As one attorney put it to me at one time, "Rich, is it really worth $50,000 to you just to prove you are right?" How many people will answer "YES" to that sort of question?

Originally Posted by WebSlave

As one attorney put it to me at one time, "Rich, is it really worth $50,000 to you just to prove you are right?" How many people will answer "YES" to that sort of question?

Do you know if those attorneys quoted that number based on how much it would cost to simply get a case dismissed under the recently passed Consumer Review Fairness Act? Or was that the quote to actually fight it out in court?

I don't believe that Act was in force during the last review I had an attorney perform for me concerning the BOI. Or else it was, but still too new to be common knowledge among most attorneys. Or perhaps my current attorney knew it wouldn't apply to my situation, so did not bring it up in the discussion. I've been reading it over, from various sources, including the actual text of the Act, and I'm not certain it would be of much help concerning the concerns I have expressed here.

The Consumer Review Fairness Act of 2016 invalidates non-disparagement clauses in certain "form contracts" (as defined in the statute) and makes it unlawful for a person to offer or enter into a form contract containing a non-negotiable non-disparagement clause. Violations of this prohibition are enforced by the Federal Trade Commission and state attorneys general. The law does not limit the ability of a person or business to file a civil cause of action for defamation, libel, slander, or any similar cause of action under State law.

The Act seems to be mostly focused on companies that put statements in their contracts designed to inhibit a customer's legal right to post their opinions about such company or it's products. It does not seem to specifically apply to any person or company that does not have such contracts or statements.

In any event a person's sole remedy appears to be to file a complaint with the FTC, and does not appear to be something that can be handled directly via the legal system. If I am reading it correctly.

I didn't see anything that inferred that a lawsuit filed would be neutered by such complaints to the FTC.

If I were intending to continue with the BOI after 02-02-2020, I would ask my current attorney for his opinion about it. But such that it is, I believe it would just be throwing away money at this point.

IMHO.

BTW, my current attorney brought up the anti-SLAPP law here in Florida (http://conlinpa.com/2015/08/15/new-f...by-any-person/), but I'm not sure the courts have yet determined how broad the scope is of it. Several other states have similar laws on the books, but I'm not sure if there is any federal equivalent of it.

As I said before, I believe I have quite a few protections concerning the law protecting me in how I have been running the BOI, but none of them can actually prevent a lawsuit. They are only helpful in tilting the odds far in my favor that I would win it. I would still have to pay for the legal defense, regardless.

Anyway, as I have stated before, the issue isn't so much my legal standing as it is the fact that the support from the industry/hobby it was designed to help is so obviously lacking. So I am simply withdrawing my support for the BOI as a result, by simply removing the weight from my shoulders.

Straight up we here at RGM feel strongly killing the BOI is a huge mistake and are completely willing to MOD the entire thing without complaint. This is a necessary part of doing business the trades have grown to big and there have to be stop gaps to allow people to know who they are dealing with and keep reputations in check. There was a time when anyone in the trades knew who everyone was because the circle was so small those days are long gone every one with a computer can pretend to be a real deal “known” breeder. Facebook has made it even worse. Please reconsider the his action.