Sarah Prickett

I think the OP's main topic was how he/she felt about the seller's stance on shipping a reptile right now and how:

'Everyone else is doing it, so why shouldnt I do it too. I'm going to continue til I get caught. IF I get caught doing the crime, I'll pay the fine. But until then, not judge me.'

Just my two cent here but this hobby is looked upon so harshly, why would anyone want to do anything that would or could draw even more negative attention to us?????

PJ Coombs

Originally Posted by TailsWithScales

[font="Palatino Linotype"][size="2"]Shipping a reptile through UPS is not illegal so I'm unsure why you say that.

First, we are discussing *snakes*, not *reptiles*. Second I said *may* because there are actually laws about things like shipping, interstate commerce and all that jazz, and while UPS is a private company laws still apply. If they say *NO* they mean *NO*, and intentionally violating that policy *MAY* in fact be breaking a law.

Secondly it does not make anyone "bad" for still choosing to ship with someone just because UPS says no. As a matter of pure fact UPS has NEVER agreed to ship live animals!! EVER. So it's not as though anything has really changed.

So much wrong here. First, it does actually show poor character to intentionally violate the policies of a company like that. It could cause legit and respectable business people grief if UPS decides to no longer ship any animals. And " as a matter of pure fact" UPS vehemently disagrees with your position on their position to ship live animals. From UPS.com their policy:

Originally Posted by UPS

Shipping Live Animals
UPS provides service on a limited basis for packages containing some types of live animals. The term "animal" as used herein refers to anything living, except plants. While the list of "Accepted Live Animals" provided herein is an exhaustive list of animals that can be offered for transportation in accordance with the conditions listed, the list of "Prohibited Live Animals" is only a partial list of animals provided to clarify specific species that are not accepted for transportation and may not be shipped via UPS. Any animal not specifically listed on the "Accepted Live Animals" list is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation.

Packages containing live animals must be prepared in accordance with the requirements as specifically stated herein. Packages containing live animals must provide for the basic humane care and safety of the animal during transportation. Any package containing a live animal shall be considered a perishable commodity and will be accepted for transportation solely at the shipper´s risk for any damage or loss arising from the perishable nature of the item. UPS shall not be liable for any special, incidental, or consequential damages.

In the event a package containing a prohibited item is found en route or in the UPS system, that package will be stopped at the location or UPS facility of the discovery. UPS reserves the right to dispose of the package.

So while some animals CAN as a matter of pure fact be shipped via UPS, snakes cannot, and if UPS finds out, it reserves the right to *dispose* of the package. I assume that means the poor defenseless pawn of an animal inside. I personally feel someone that intentionally takes such liberties and risks falls into the "bad guy" category. YMMV
BTW that link I posted, which is also the same link in a previous post, also lists acceptable animals (some herps) and prohibited animals (all snakes)

Only when Ship You Reptile was up and running did UPS agree to anything. So outside of that it's always been against UPS's TOS. Which is why they've NEVER insured live animal packages or had any form of guarantee on the package if something happens to it while in transit. So what makes this any different?????

I am not sure how to address much of this, honestly, but wanted to leave it in for continuity. For the record they won't insure live animals because they can't control how people have cared for the animal and how they have packaged it. Obviously, or we would not be having this conversation now.

Honestly choosing a shipping method does not make them a "bad guy". How the animal is packed, treated, condition etc, if those are really bad then yes bad guy. But from my experience there isn't a shipping company out there that has full agreement to ship and guarantee live animal cargo other then Delta Dash. Even if you're certified. I would say yes, exercise caution in a deal where you know nothing of the seller but don't label them a bad guy unless it's truly warranted.

Well, I hope I have been successful in attempting to show that
A- a small group of people who repeatedly violate policy can ruin opportunities for everyone else

B- violating this particular policy poses an unnecessary risk to an animal

C- if that does not make someone a "bad guy" I am not sure what does?

And also, as mentioned previously, if the seller is so willing to deceive UPS, why not you?

Also if the seller is more that willing to ship to a location that is -10 degrees (I am assuming Fahrenheit, though even if Celsius that is rather cold) I think that says enough as well.

Again though, YMMV

Drew, so you're saying that people that ship snakes via UPS are bad guys?

Originally Posted by bobtard

Drew, so you're saying that people that ship snakes via UPS are bad guys?

Unless they are doing so under a private contract with UPS, I think a case can be made.

Again, from the UPS website, any package containing a prohibited item, like all snakes, can be disposed of. Or in other words destroyed. As in killed.

In addition it reflects poorly on those of us who chose to remain above board.

Why take the risk?

I'm afraid I agree with the majority here...

1) The individual acknowledges that UPS has a specific no snakes policy (despite the comments posted previously, UPS has shipped other reptiles pre-SYR) and has no problems violating it. This would include the danger she puts them in should they be confiscated (which has happened to me when SYR was in business, shipping under their umbrella).

2) She admitted to violating federal law by mislabeling the package.

3) She is willing to ship in considerably unsafe temperatures.



I don't think anyone is saying everyone that ships UPS is a Bad Guy. I think what is being said here is if you're knowingly violating UPS policy and do not have a waiver to ship snakes with them (some large companies do), then yes, you aren't someone to do business with. Add in the other two issues, I think it speaks volumes about the individual.

Originally Posted by Drew Zaun

First, we are discussing *snakes*, not *reptiles*. Second I said *may* because there are actually laws about things like shipping, interstate commerce and all that jazz, and while UPS is a private company laws still apply. If they say *NO* they mean *NO*, and intentionally violating that policy *MAY* in fact be breaking a law.



So much wrong here. First, it does actually show poor character to intentionally violate the policies of a company like that. It could cause legit and respectable business people grief if UPS decides to no longer ship any animals. And " as a matter of pure fact" UPS vehemently disagrees with your position on their position to ship live animals. From UPS.com their policy:



So while some animals CAN as a matter of pure fact be shipped via UPS, snakes cannot, and if UPS finds out, it reserves the right to *dispose* of the package. I assume that means the poor defenseless pawn of an animal inside. I personally feel someone that intentionally takes such liberties and risks falls into the "bad guy" category. YMMV
BTW that link I posted, which is also the same link in a previous post, also lists acceptable animals (some herps) and prohibited animals (all snakes)


I am not sure how to address much of this, honestly, but wanted to leave it in for continuity. For the record they won't insure live animals because they can't control how people have cared for the animal and how they have packaged it. Obviously, or we would not be having this conversation now.


Well, I hope I have been successful in attempting to show that
A- a small group of people who repeatedly violate policy can ruin opportunities for everyone else

B- violating this particular policy poses an unnecessary risk to an animal

C- if that does not make someone a "bad guy" I am not sure what does?

And also, as mentioned previously, if the seller is so willing to deceive UPS, why not you?

Also if the seller is more that willing to ship to a location that is -10 degrees (I am assuming Fahrenheit, though even if Celsius that is rather cold) I think that says enough as well.

Again though, YMMV

M'kay and you're taking my post just a wee bit far.
UPS may stop the package and hold it but unless the sender fully lies about it, no it's not illegal. As Harald said.

I'm also willing to bet that if I took a monitor, boxed it up properly and went to UPS to ship it out, as I've done on countless occasions, declared exactly what what in the box, as I've also done countless times I am going to have to agree that it's against their TOS and be notified that UPS is not responsible in any way for any harm, damage, loss of life etc that may incur during transit. This has happened EVERY time I've gone to ship a lizard which by what is on their site is supposed to be accepted. But any rep I've spoke with says 100% the opposite. I'm sorry but I sure as hades am not going to trust UPS's website that something isn't wrong or against the TOS when I've had dozens of different employee's tell me the exact opposite and this is based over about 8 years of shipping reptiles through UPS's.

As I said I would exercise some serious caution when dealing with a seller I do not know and seemingly no one has ever heard of.

But just because they are choosing to ship with UPS does not make them a bad guy regardless of if it's a snake or not.

And I take your

Originally Posted by Drew Zaun

And also, as mentioned previously, if the seller is so willing to deceive UPS, why not you?

As offensive and rude and accusatory. You do not know me nor any of my past business dealing so please don't accuse me of deceiving anyone.

The comment "If the seller is so willing to deceive UPS, why not you?" means the seller would deceive YOU.. not YOU would deceive people(if the writer is using regular English grammar rules).

The seller the OP is referancing IS shipping illegally by mislabeling the boxes. She is ALSO going against UPS policy by shipping snakes when UPS prohibits shipping snakes. So she lies to the company she uses for shipping.. and is ignoring federal law regarding labeling the boxes properly.

Just because "lots" of people shoplift or sell meth on the street or whatever doesn't suddenly make it right. I recently heard someone actually state that "Well, tons of people shoplift, so what's the big deal?" The big deal is it's STEALING.

The "big deal" here is she's LYING to UPS and violating federal law in her labeling. IF you are fine doing business with someone who is contributing to the poor public face that the reptile hobby already has with the general public and the shipping companies in particular, that's fine. I'm glad to hear about people who are tearing down the reptile community so I don't do business with them.

Originally Posted by TailsWithScales

M'kay and you're taking my post just a wee bit far.
UPS may stop the package and hold it but unless the sender fully lies about it, no it's not illegal. As Harald said.

I'm also willing to bet that if I took a monitor, boxed it up properly and went to UPS to ship it out, as I've done on countless occasions, declared exactly what what in the box, as I've also done countless times I am going to have to agree that it's against their TOS and be notified that UPS is not responsible in any way for any harm, damage, loss of life etc that may incur during transit. This has happened EVERY time I've gone to ship a lizard which by what is on their site is supposed to be accepted. But any rep I've spoke with says 100% the opposite. I'm sorry but I sure as hades am not going to trust UPS's website that something isn't wrong or against the TOS when I've had dozens of different employee's tell me the exact opposite and this is based over about 8 years of shipping reptiles through UPS's.

As I said I would exercise some serious caution when dealing with a seller I do not know and seemingly no one has ever heard of.

But just because they are choosing to ship with UPS does not make them a bad guy regardless of if it's a snake or not.

And I take your


As offensive and rude and accusatory. You do not know me nor any of my past business dealing so please don't accuse me of deceiving anyone.

At this point I see no reason to continue this discussion with you. Please ask your Strawman to step away from the computer. At no point did I say it was illegal to ship reptiles, or monitors. In fact, according to the UPS website that is perfectly acceptable. Please show in quotes where I have stated otherwise?

Why should anyone take your word about a company's policy over their own website when you are not even having the same discussion as the rest of us here?

As for your taking offense to my comment, please read that comment again, you are misinterperating it. Allow me to state it in a different way:

If someone (random seller) would knowlingly and intentionaly violate UPS policy, break a federal law, and place an animal in unnecesary danger by shipping via UPS instead of another company that allows the shipping of SNAKES
how could you have any faith they would not misrepresent the health and genetics of the animal they ship to you, or even honor their own TOS if you have an issue? Such as UPS found out it was mis-labeled and prohibited and have *disposed* of the animal?

And finally, how does violating policy, breaking laws AND placing an additional and unneeded risk to an animal not constitute a "bad guy"? Please defend, but please only defend against what I have actually said, do not make something else up and then defend against that.

Thank you.

P.S. Sorry if this sounds a little angry, but I do take exception to people who try so hard to be offended that they have to invent the offense and then atribute it to me.

Originally Posted by TailsWithScales

UPS may stop the package and hold it but unless the sender fully lies about it, no it's not illegal. As Harald said.

Just one more simple question. How does placing a snake, (any snake but in this particular case a large boid like a boa, Burmese or reticulated python) in a box and labelling that box "LIVE HARMLESS LIZARD" not "fully lieing"?

Originally Posted by Drew Zaun

Just one more simple question. How does placing a snake, (any snake but in this particular case a large boid like a boa, Burmese or reticulated python) in a box and labelling that box "LIVE HARMLESS LIZARD" not "fully lieing"?

EXACTLY THE POINT
and we all trust liars...right??? Just an overall presence of the actions and words that person used.
Good guy ~ Bad guy...you make up your mind.