Dwarfism or runt??

Hi all new here and I have a few questions. I purchased a male Orange Hypo Leather last Sep(9/30/10). Everything is going ok, He is doing good, eats lots, loves his baths and going out for fresh sun.
When we first got him he was 7 1/4" and six weeks old.
He loves eating his greens, asst. squashes, carrots, crickets, dubia, phoenix worms and an occasional wax worm(2-3 every other week when my birds get them).
He's in a 50 breeder by himself, 75w spot gets basking spot to 112f, 40w household bulb to keep ambient hot side about 89f and cool side about 75f. 24" reptisun 10.0 mounted inside to the top of the screen. Bulbs replaced every 4 months. Cal dusted once daily except on the weekends and he gets his vitamins.
Now I have had dragons since I was about 12 yr old, now 27. I have cared for over a hundred babies and dozens of breeders/collectors. This is the first dragon that I've had that just will not beef up. Seems like he stopped growing around 5 months old. He is about 15" and 140-160g. He eats and poops everyday; veggies at 630am, insects at 730am/1230pm/530pm, bath at 7pm, bask till lights out at 8pm and then cuddle and bed time.
Could he just be this late of a bloomer. He has been to the vet for numerous fecals, all clean.
His cage was on top of a 5ft tall dresser (top of tank over 6ft off ground)and I thought it might be that, so we brought it down to chest level(top of tank about 4ft off ground). This was at the beginning of June. The only thing this has done is cut his wild side/aggression spurts down, but has now started to hiss every once an awhile. He does get the stink eye from my dog now that he is easily visible.

Any help or insight will be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks
Mike

Same problem. I have with two like this (well one passed away at 5 yrs). Both fed vigorously throughout there lives and i followed all the caresheets and what not. and both stayed around 14". and never got any bigger like you said stopped at about 5 months. The one who passed was my first dragon and she was my favorite and I miss her. The other is a great animal, but I would never breed her. Im not sure why it happens. He sounds okay, and your care sounds great. Maybe I missed it, but how often do you feed him? Was he always a good eater?

Has always been a super eater. We offer food at least 4 times a day, some times more on the weekends. Dustings happen once a day on his insects only. He has always pooed atleast once a day(always on his basking branch which leads to total tank cleaning). It's very odd; like I said I've had easily a hundred dragons and never once have seen this issue without prior husbandry issues. I hope he hits a crazy growth spurt as he would make an amazing stud. But if It doesn't happen in the next 6 months he will be a handsome bachelor.

Do you know anything about the parents of the dragon? Would be interesting to know what size they were.

Supposedly they are huge. I got him from a well known breeder, I have emailed them and still waiting for some reply.

i have a female who's stopped growing at 16", but she's only about a year old. she's been 16" for about 4 months

Originally Posted by allmotorcrx

Hi all new here and I have a few questions. I purchased a male Orange Hypo Leather last Sep(9/30/10). Everything is going ok, He is doing good, eats lots, loves his baths and going out for fresh sun.
When we first got him he was 7 1/4" and six weeks old.
He loves eating his greens, asst. squashes, carrots, crickets, dubia, phoenix worms and an occasional wax worm(2-3 every other week when my birds get them).
He's in a 50 breeder by himself, 75w spot gets basking spot to 112f, 40w household bulb to keep ambient hot side about 89f and cool side about 75f. 24" reptisun 10.0 mounted inside to the top of the screen. Bulbs replaced every 4 months. Cal dusted once daily except on the weekends and he gets his vitamins.
Now I have had dragons since I was about 12 yr old, now 27. I have cared for over a hundred babies and dozens of breeders/collectors. This is the first dragon that I've had that just will not beef up. Seems like he stopped growing around 5 months old. He is about 15" and 140-160g. He eats and poops everyday; veggies at 630am, insects at 730am/1230pm/530pm, bath at 7pm, bask till lights out at 8pm and then cuddle and bed time.
Could he just be this late of a bloomer. He has been to the vet for numerous fecals, all clean.
His cage was on top of a 5ft tall dresser (top of tank over 6ft off ground)and I thought it might be that, so we brought it down to chest level(top of tank about 4ft off ground). This was at the beginning of June. The only thing this has done is cut his wild side/aggression spurts down, but has now started to hiss every once an awhile. He does get the stink eye from my dog now that he is easily visible.

Any help or insight will be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks
Mike

Originally Posted by allmotorcrx

Hey Tom,

I purchased a male Orange Hypo Leather last Sep from you. Everything is going ok I guess, but I do have some questions. He is doing good, eats lots, loves his baths and going out for fresh sun. When I first got him he doubled his length in about 2 months, but quickly stopped shortly after new years. He has stayed right at 15" and has only filled out a little bit. He is probably close to 150grams now. Eats greens, squashes, crickets, dubia, phoenix worms and an occasional wax worm. He's in a 50 breeder by himself, 75w spot gets basking spot to 112f, 40w household bulb to keep ambient hot side at 90-95f and cool side about 75f. 24" reptisun 10.0 inside the screen. Could he be this late of a bloomer. He has been to the vet for numerous fecals, all clean. I thought it might be that his cage was elevated to our eye level, so we brought it down to chest level. This has cut his aggression spurts down, still likes to hiss every once an awhile. He's gorgeous and eats very well.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mike Smith

The second quote from mike is the first e-mail i received.

The explanation on the growth is weird. Here he explains, it grew 15 inches from sept to feb.
In his email to me he grew "double in size" in two months. thats 14 inches. then stopped growing.

Actually reading this thread and then comparing it to the email, its like you have a problem with this dragon. Or felt like you needed to spruce up this thread?

Adding feeding and cuddle time to this thread. Which you didnt mention in the email.(you cuddle all of those animals?) An the fact how you left out how the dragon is gorgeous and eats very well. But it was in the e-mail. You dont have to leave nothing out. I wont.

15 years is a good amount of time with dragons. Over a hundred babies can be a hand full, an lets not forget about the few dozen adults. This is a good amount of dragons Over a 15 year period Now I dont have the 15 yrs behind me. But let me give you alittle back ground on me.

As for breeding and housing dragons. I have been breeding since I was 21. I am now 28. I have had 55 60 adults in my care at once. I now have 27 Adults. Along with 3-400 babies at any given time. At once sometimes maybe more, maybe less. At this time I have somewhere around 150-200 babies. Last year 2010 I hatched almost 2500 hundred babies. Bought and sold somewhere around 800. Wholesale.

This year was a big "take a break" as I doubt I have done half of that. But it might help you and others with my experience on dragons.

SOOOOO from someone who has dealt with a few more dragons than you... This is what I have learned in 7 years,

There are some dragons that get big fast. Some take awhile to get to size. An some never make it to 4-500 grams. Lets get real, there are some that never make it! Its the way it is.

I have only had two e-mails about under sized dragons. Your one. The other one is from a breeder who had a juvie slow down on them in winter (that was the issue it was winter) and gave that dragon 2-3 different parasite meds, without even finding out if it had parasites. The dragon stopped eating on that breeder. So I know 100% why that dragon is not of size. I do not have a answer for what is going on with your animal.

Originally Posted by DJ Dragons

Do you know anything about the parents of the dragon? Would be interesting to know what size they were.

Originally Posted by allmotorcrx

Supposedly they are huge. I got him from a well known breeder, I have emailed them and still waiting for some reply.

Do you have the dragons genetic's? I dont think huge is a word i used. Unless it was the hypo german giant cross. An I would want a e-mailed copy proof of that cross. Because I only crossed him to two girls and sold him. I never said the parents were huge. So lets not exaggerate. This aint the place and IM not the person.

I apologize for not responding right away, I have been busy. I have been in and out of town, and I am moving to a bigger place. I have alot of animals and animal stuff to move.

Maybe if your emails subject title said " question about a purchased beardie" instead of "available beardies" I would have answered sooner. This to me sounded like a special request for a dragon. I havent even posted dragons because of how busy I was. I wasnt looking at this email.

I have answered all your questions back and forth. You kinda listened and didnt want to take my advise on the adjustments. So I dont know what you want me to say?

I do not know why the dragon is small. For the length, I think its pretty good. But I think the dragon should be heavier. Can you post a few pictures of this dragon here on this thread. The dragon is not un healthy and thrives fine. Actually it has a little pot belly. .. I dont know what else to tell you Mike. An I believe there are only a few on here that would have a few good suggestions that I have not offered already.

An with all the suggestions, I doubt there is one for a dragon to gain weight. Your feeding it everything you can.

This thread was is no way bashing you. I has a simple question and emailed you, I even attached the new email to the previous emails so there would be no confusion on who I was. All your emails where short an not very informative just a bunch of questions. The only suggestion you made was to paper the walls, he has not one stress mark on him. Then you stopped replying so you never finished the conversation. I copied and pasted the entire post and sent it to you for you to read and you asked all the same questions, someone didn't read it aye. You being the breeder should be able to go back threw the original emails and determine the parents of said dragon. Again this is not a bashing thread, I just had to ask some questions. So really no need to get defensive unless you did wrong.

I will post all emails from me an Tom..

First thru last email between Tom Clarke and I....

from Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to 360player@live.com
date Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:17 PM
subject Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 9/29/10


Very interested in the orange hypo leather male you have posted on your website. If he is still available could you please let me know if I can come pick up. I am located in northern va.
Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you soon
Mike Smith


from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to allmotorcrx@gmail.com
date Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:33 PM
subject RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 9/29/10

Hi Mike,

Well we can do this a few different ways.

Because of the bad weather I may or may not work tomorrow. depending on weather we can see if our schedule's work.

Another idea is shipping is going to be 15-20 bucks. Actually may be cheaper than driving.

This weekend would be another play by ear, I am either working or crabbing Saturday And the going out of town until sunday after noon, Possibly. Fishing trip if weather is good. I live close to the water and try to spend as much time on it as possible.

I guess let me know whats going on, on your end. Sorry my schedule is so complicated. Usually I am not this busy, but its that time of year to enjoy it because it's almost over with!

I will be up for a few hours, let me know what your thinking.

Tom


from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:37 PM
subject Re: RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 9/29/10


I feel you on the fishing, wish I could get out. I will be off by noon tomorrow and can make the trip up to you if that is possible. Let me know if this will work and we can arrange a good time for me to come up.
Thanks,
Mike smith
- Show quoted text -
On Sep 29, 2010 9:34 PM, "Tom Clarke" <360player@live.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Well we can do this a few different ways.
>
> Because of the bad weather I may or may not work tomorrow. depending on weather we can see if our schedule's work.
>
> Another idea is shipping is going to be 15-20 bucks. Actually may be cheaper than driving.
>
> This weekend would be another play by ear, I am either working or crabbing Saturday And the going out of town until sunday after noon, Possibly. Fishing trip if weather is good. I live close to the water and try to spend as much time on it as possible.
>
> I guess let me know whats going on, on your end. Sorry my schedule is so complicated. Usually I am not this busy, but its that time of year to enjoy it because it's almost over with!
>
> I will be up for a few hours, let me know what your thinking.
>
> Tom
>
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:17:32 -0400
> Subject: Available beardies?
> From: allmotorcrx@gmail.com
> To: 360player@live.com
>
> Very interested in the orange hypo leather male you have posted on your website. If he is still available could you please let me know if I can come pick up. I am located in northern va.
>
> Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you soon
>
> Mike Smith
Reply


from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to allmotorcrx@gmail.com
date Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:45 PM
subject RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 9/29/10

I would have to let you know when i get out of work. I wont until 5. If i go in it will be to check on the boats at the pier and hang around for a few hours. unless something comes up and i am stuck there.Send me your phone number, and I will call you tomorrow when im getting out of work. Where would be a good place to meet?

Tom


from 360player@live.com via srs.bis.na.blackberry.com
reply-to 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 6:35 PM
subject Re: RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by srs.bis.na.blackberry.com

Hey Mike,
I made my Pa trip today since I was off because of the weather. I am almost back in the area if you would like to come up my way tonight. I think we can find a place to meet. If you want to hold off a day or two its up to you.feel free to call me. 443-955-8967

Tom



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to 360player@live.com
date Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:01 PM
subject Re: RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com


Hi Tom,
Just wanted thank you for the handsome dragon. He is already really happy, no stress marks and coloring up nicely. I was wondering a couple things. What was your light scedule, cage temps, feeding schedule, and if you could send me pic of the parents. Also how often do you supplement with calcium and vitamins.
Thanks again
Mike Smith



Here are the newest emails asking why he could be so small!!



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:16 AM
subject RE: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details Aug 3 (4 days ago)


Hey Tom,

I purchased a male Orange Hypo Leather last Sep from you. Everything is going ok I guess, but I do have some questions. He is doing good, eats lots, loves his baths and going out for fresh sun. When I first got him he doubled his length in about 2 months, but quickly stopped shortly after new years. He has stayed right at 15" and has only filled out a little bit. He is probably close to 150grams now. Eats greens, squashes, crickets, dubia, phoenix worms and an occasional wax worm. He's in a 50 breeder by himself, 75w spot gets basking spot to 112f, 40w household bulb to keep ambient hot side at 90-95f and cool side about 75f. 24" reptisun 10.0 inside the screen. Could he be this late of a bloomer. He has been to the vet for numerous fecals, all clean. I thought it might be that his cage was elevated to our eye level, so we brought it down to chest level. This has cut his aggression spurts down, still likes to hiss every once an awhile. He's gorgeous and eats very well.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mike Smith


from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 9:59 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 9:59 PM (11 hours ago)

Mike,

Have I or my g.f. Get back to you about your beardie?

Tom



from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:04 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 10:04 PM (11 hours ago)

I'm sorry. I have been out of town an when in town barley have time to enjoy myself.

Can you send me a picture of his cage.

And can you describe his daily actions?



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 10:11 PM (10 hours ago)


He is very active, not shy at all. Very alert of his surroundings. He is in a full shed right now. Pictures are attached

from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:13 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 10:13 PM (10 hours ago)

hum, he looks pretty healthy...

Can you send a full shot of the cage? I want to see the whole set up in one picture.

Picture were retaken and sent again.


from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:14 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 10:14 PM (10 hours ago)


Hi all new here and I have a few questions. I purchased a male Orange Hypo Leather last Sep(9/30/10). Everything is going ok, He is doing good, eats lots, loves his baths and going out for fresh sun.
When we first got him he was 7 1/4" and six weeks old.
He loves eating his greens, asst. squashes, carrots, crickets, dubia, phoenix worms and an occasional wax worm(2-3 every other week when my birds get them).
He's in a 50 breeder by himself, 75w spot gets basking spot to 112f, 40w household bulb to keep ambient hot side about 89f and cool side about 75f. 24" reptisun 10.0 mounted inside to the top of the screen. Bulbs replaced every 4 months. Cal dusted once daily except on the weekends and he gets his vitamins.
Now I have had dragons since I was about 12 yr old, now 27. I have cared for over a hundred babies and dozens of breeders/collectors. This is the first dragon that I've had that just will not beef up. Seems like he stopped growing around 5 months old. He is about 15" and 140-160g.
He eats and poops everyday; veggies at 630am,
insects at 730am/1230pm/530pm, bath at 7pm, bask till lights out at 8pm and then cuddle and bed time.
Could he just be this late of a bloomer. He has been to the vet for numerous fecals, all clean.
His cage was on top of a 5ft tall dresser (top of tank over 6ft off ground)and I thought it might be that, so we brought it down to chest level(top of tank about 4ft off ground). This was at the beginning of June. The only thing this has done is cut his wild side/aggression spurts down, but has now started to hiss every once an awhile. He does get the stink eye from my dog now that he is easily visible.



from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:20 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 10:20 PM (10 hours ago)

Slowing down in winter is usually. But he should have picked up by now.

He shouldn't have a bath but once a week.

How old is the dragon now?

Can you get a pic of the cage set up?

Thx,

Tom




from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:25 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 10:25 PM (10 hours ago)

Not to bad of a setup. A few things I would try. Paper up the sides of the cage also.

Also on the hot side I don't think the bottom of the cage is that hot. All of your heat is right there at the top of the cage.

Try sliding the wood setup to the middle OR keep it there and put a nice big river rock in the cage. See if it collect heat. Rocks are much better than wood. As the rocks hold the heat and wood doesn't.

As for the aggression, remember your reaching in his cage from the top. And you hand is as big as him. When he is out of the cage is he that aggressive?



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:29 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 10:29 PM (10 hours ago)


Being that it was still a baby, winter shouldn't have affected him. Purchased him Oct.1st 2011 so just 11 months old. I haven't had any issues with previous dragons batheing daily, his poops are normal and not runny. He's usually just in the tub for 5 min to drink and rinse off.



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:37 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 10:37 PM (10 hours ago)


At the highest basking spot its 110, the slate that is attached mid way up to the log is right at 101, and the floor is at 88, cool side is at 75-79. He is not aggressive in the tank as I always come in from the opposite side he is occupying, it more when he's out and about and having fun and I have to put him away. He does hiss now, but I think that's mostly from having been moved from his throne.



from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:44 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com

hide details 10:44 PM (10 hours ago)

Yea a lot of ppl give dragons a bath daily. I don't recommend it as they are not a water dragon but a desert dragon.

What are you feeding them and where are you gettin your feeders?




from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:00 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 11:00 PM (10 hours ago)


He eats anything and everything. Crickets, dubia, phoenix worms,wax worms, collars, dandelions, all sorts of squash, cactus pads even fresh alfalfa greens. He ears better than we do, all veggies are organic. Cricket I get from a local shop in bulk 500 every other week(she orders from from ghanns). I have very very little die off maybe 20 in 2 weeks. Dubia I get 500 every other week from various forum members and a local guy. Worms come from phoenix worms directly(usually get a 4pack of mediums) and from timberline(petco waxies, and he only get maybe 5-6 every other week when my African grey doesn't finish them off). All live feeders get a super diet, pretty much all the human left overs, as well as a daily staple of powdered merrick dog food,dried blueberries, dehydrated carrot, and oatmeal.



from [Available] Mike Smith allmotorcrx@gmail.com
to Tom Clarke <360player@live.com>
date Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:45 PM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by gmail.com



We had the sides papered up for about 2 months, all he did was eat bask and lay against the front glass as if he was trying to peer around the corner to see us.



I didnt see another reply until this morning as well i got notification of fauna reply...

from Tom Clarke 360player@live.com
to Mike Smith <allmotorcrx@gmail.com>
date Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:11 AM
subject Re: Available beardies?
mailed-by live.com
hide details 4:11 AM (5 hours ago)

Well you have answered the questions an had him for fecals. Between makin sure that large enclosure (its kinda large for a dragon that size) is up to temp. An u.v. Light isn't to far away. An maybe feeding him larger feeders (crix look small) I'm not to sure what to tell you.

The dragon eats, sleeps, poops, thrives, does everyday life just fine. His dragging belly says he eats hearty.


Please tell me how a 36x18 is too big?? and how are my feeders too small being they are right at the size of the space between his eyes and some times bigger??


I dont know but something just isnt jiving!!

Oh well he will not become a breeder, he will stay a pet.

Please quote me on where I said he grew 15"since getting him. I said he doubled his size in the first few months!! hmm 7 1/4" x 2 = 14 1/2".... very close to 15" right??