Jeff Gee -Captive Bred wildlife foundation- Bad Businessman

One other point I'd like to make. Based solely on the email from Jeff that Micah posted, it seems that Jeff genuinely would like to make the situation right. He deserves the chance to do that, and until that chance is given the talk of lawsuits should be avoided.
If Jeff doesn't have the cash, he doesn't have it, and no court order is going to make it suddenly appear in his bank account. Wining a lawsuit does not guarantee any payment, and a judgment doesn't pay the bills.

Lawsuits create bad blood and until the potential defendant demonstrates that their is no other recourse besides legal action the issue shouldn't be threatened.
Threatening legal action against someone who appears to be willing to work with you isn't the best way to make them continue in that willingness.

Lawsuits do create bad blood, but so does taking someone's $8000. I'm sure you would feel differently if it was your money. It is true that a lawsuit will not insure payment, but one could put a lien on any property that Jeff may have in order to "persuade" him to pay off the debt. I know that if I had inadvertantly defrauded anyone (I don't believe he purposefully did) I would make the situation right by any means possible.If he can guarantee his genetics then he should not advetise them as 100% d.h. I do not consider offering the hypos as compensation. Albino leopards might of fetched up around $15000 each and all he wants is his money back.The best hypo on the market in my opinion is worth only $1000, not $5000. No one should defend Jeff's actions in this matter. He may be a"good guy" , but his actions are not suggesting this fact. The bottom line is that this situation will affect all breeders and hobbyists. Anyone reading these posts (including myself) will think twice before purchasing such high dollar items even from reputable breeders. If Jeff can treat a customer like this, perhaps other reputable breeders will follow suit. This in turn will lower prices and professional breeders who are trustworthy will suffer the consequences.

Well if the Hypo's are worth that much why doesn't Jeff sell a few and refund what he owes?? How hard is it to open an account here and post..Randy

I agree. I am and have given Jeff the chance to make this right. I agree, sell the hypos and send me the money. I did tell him I would try and work with him, I just dont want any more snakes from him .
Here is the paperwork. Its kinda blurry from resizing to fit, but you can clearly read what I paid and for what.
Thanks
Mike

The attachment does not work. Try uploading your photo to the photo gallery, and then post the link using IMG tags.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

Lawsuits do create bad blood, but so does taking someone's $8000. I'm sure you would feel differently if it was your money.

Actually no I wouldn't. I never said don't think of suing him at all, I merely stated he should be given the opportunity to make it right without having to resort to a lawsuit.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

I do not consider offering the hypos as compensation. Albino leopards might of fetched up around $15000 each and all he wants is his money back.The best hypo on the market in my opinion is worth only $1000, not $5000.

I agree, offering hypos is not an acceptable means of compensation. However, you opinion nor mine has any effect on what Jeff's snakes are worth and what they are not. This is why he should take care of the selling of them and use the proceeds of those sales to pay off his two customers. The goal would be a set amount of cash, not a perceived value of snakes. Perceptions vary, cash is cash.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

No one should defend Jeff's actions in this matter. He may be a"good guy" , but his actions are not suggesting this fact.

I'm not defending him one way or another. His actions aren't suggesting anything, but his email is suggesting that he is willing to offer compensation. I'm just suggesting that the compensation not be in the form of boas, but in the form of cash gained from the sale of the boas.
If Jeff is willing, as it appears he is, to give these customers boas as compensation, I can't see why he wouldn't be willing to sell those boas himself and simply give them the cash.
All I'm saying is he should be given that opportunity before the subject of lawsuits is breached.
We live in a sue happy society and this is an example of that. In all aspects of life, and very often right here on the BOI one of the first suggestions made is to sue. I suppose this is an artifact of living in a country with 70% of the world's lawyers and 5% of the world's population.
Sure he could initiate a lawsuit. He'd be lucky to find a lawyer who could adequately explain reptilian genetics to a jury or a judge. Then IF he won the suit, and IF he ever actually got a monetary award he could then hand a very healthy chunk of it over to the lawyer.
No matter how you look at it, it is in the best interest of everyone involved to find an acceptable means of settling this out of court as long as Jeff is willing to make amends without that measure.
Lawsuits are always an option, but should never be the first option as is all too often the case.

Congratulations on your obvious wealth. Unlike you Clay , I can't afford to flush $8000. The emails between Jeff and Mr. Combs suggest that Jeff has no intention of paying Mike back his $8000. Instead he would rather give him a few hypos and call it even. Again I will state that the hypos are only worth what someone is willing to pay and judging how long his hypos have been for sale , they are not worth $5000.His actions are absolutely suggesting he is a bad businessman! I'm not sure how you can defend him, unless you are a close friend (and I really don't care). I will never buy from Jeff and I hope many others don't either. This is the last I'm going to post on the matter.

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

Again I will state that the hypos are only worth what someone is willing to pay and judging how long his hypos have been for sale , they are not worth $5000.

My personal opinion on that is exactly what you stated. Although they may be "F5" Hypos and the fifth generation in whatever the heck he is breeding over there, it doesn't necessarily make it a quality animal. I've seen amazing looking F1's and i've seen some garbage looking F3's. Selective breeding in this instance isn't about just breeding multiple generations of crap, it's about refining the morph with quality animals (regarding the Hypo gene in boas) of the same trait.

I will never buy from Jeff and I hope many others don't either. This is the last I'm going to post on the matter.

And neither will I for that matter.

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

I'll share a quick story with you of when I met Jeff personally back in 1994. Before all the hype and enthusiam of the designer boas, Jeff never really "knew" what he had until a few other big boas breeders at the time got him "up to speed" so to speak. His Orange-Tail bloodline was one of the first designer hypo boa genes available to the market, but initially (which suprises many people) they were very affordable. Jeff sold "het for hypos" for $150.00 a pair, and the actual Hypos for $300-$700.00 an animal. Sound too good to be true? Indeed it was for the enthusiasts at the time, especially because many at the time did not know where the designer boas would progress.

In 1993 I spoke to Jeff and asked him to hold a single Hypo male for me to pick up at an upcoming high-end reptile show in Philadelphia, PA (entrance fee ~ $40.00 to even get through the door). I had met some amazing people at that meet including Tracy Barker, Steve Osborne, and Peter Kahl to name a few (all of which were great people). I was there to purchase some het. for Albino Ball Pythons from Steve Osborne, as well as pick up the F1 Make Hypo Boa from Jeff. When I arrive at the meet, the price of the male I wanted went from $500.00 to $1500.00 for the animal. I asked Jeff what was this about, and he said that the market now commanded that price, and that my $500.00 wasn't going to get me the Hypo Male. But, as a token of his gratitude for coming to the meet and meeting him, he'd gladly sell me some "Het. for Hypos" for $500.00 a pair.



His table was directly beside another big breeders table, and they both heckled at me as I left with just my het for Albino Ball Python males.



My experience with Jeff? Disgusting if that shows his character. He seems to have a thing for selling "het. for nothing" animals and this story hit a nerve with me considering he still has not changed in all these years.

A law suit is a viable option, and he is certainly no rookie when it comes to being in the courtroom. Be sure to ask Jeff about the $25,000.00 law suit he had in the mid 90's over some Aldabra Tortises he sold DOA to a prestiegous breeder in California. The breeder sued Jeff, and won back his $25K after Jeff was found neglectful in his shipping practices.

I wish the victims in this matter all the best and hope everything works out for you. It's just a shame people like this continue to be in business...

- Vic

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

Congratulations on your obvious wealth. Unlike you Clay , I can't afford to flush $8000.

Please, by all means, point out to me where I said he should just flush the 8 grand and forget about it.
Since you either refuse to read my entire post, or else just fail to comprehend what I am saying, I will make one last effort to explain it.
I never said a lawsuit should not even be considered, I only said it shouldn't be the first option taken.
To shout lawsuit at the first hint of a bad deal is pointless. It only makes sense to try to work it out privately first.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

The emails between Jeff and Mr. Combs suggest that Jeff has no intention of paying Mike back his $8000. Instead he would rather give him a few hypos and call it even.

What I see in the email is a willingness to do something about the situation which is FAR more than we have seen from the majority of bad deals on the BOI.
I do agree that the offer of the hypos is unacceptable. Just so you caught that, I DO AGREE. If Jeff is willing to take the further step of selling the boas himself and sending his two customers cash, would that not be an acceptable solution? Yet you just want to yell lawsuit and not even offer that opportunity.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

I'm not sure how you can defend him, unless you are a close friend (and I really don't care).

Once again I will ask you to please point out where I defended Jeff. I have defended NOTHING in this deal other that the buyers right to compensation.
I have ONLY suggested that Jeff be allowed the opportunity to make restitution before he is led to the gallows. If he refuses to do any better than offer the hypos, I'll lead the lynch mob.
I don't know Jeff. I've never even corresponded with him, and I'd be genuinely surprised if he even recognized my name if it was mentioned to him.
Jeff most certainly owes his customers a refund. He was ripped off too, but that is between him and his supplier. Once he sold the "hets" he took responsibility for their representation and should be held accountable for it.

I admit I do dislike the lawsuit mentality. I don't sue anybody for anything. If someone ripped me off for 8 grand and refused to make it right then I'd be on a plane to see them and they'd live out their days in a wheelchair, but that's me.
The majority of people aren't willing to take care of their own business and for those the courts are the alternative, but there's no reason to go straight to the lawyers until you see that there will be no resolution any other way.

Originally Posted by xrayeric1993

I would like to hear from others (other than Clay) on how they feel about the situation, if this makes them distrustful of hets, and if they would buy expensive hets from Jeff.

I'm sorry you had to hear from me again, perhaps if you read this post fully and realize that we actually agree in principle there won't be any need for me to post further.

I agree with everything Clay has said in his above posts.

Vic,

You say Jeff has a thing for selling "het for nothing" animals, but in 1993 the hypomelanistic gene was still being figured out. Buying hets on any new morph is a risk if the genetics are still being figured out. It generally takes quite a few breedings to get the exact genetics down. Adults to siblings, siblings to siblings, siblings to normals, etc.. I understand your frustration with Jeff for raising his prices on the hypos, but did you two ever verbally agree on the price of $500 for the male that he was going to hold for you over the phone or did you just ask him to hold a male (no price talked about)?