Pets Plus Lockport, Kick Brothers - (INFO)

I saw and talked to John today, i didn't get into to many details, but he just said its a bunch of b/s. He said he suspects charges are coming, and he said it was shocked it was happen.

'Andys Turts and Torts'

Heh, I don't doubt there is B/S involved, though I don't smell it coming from the SPCA's direction.

the only thing i can say on this is i was just in the upstairs of pets plus 3 weeks ago looking at a few animals, and walked the whole floor , and it is not what the news makes it out to be!! john and crew take good care of thier animals, what these dumb asses dont tell you is john gets stuck taking a ton of rescues from irresponsible owners who neglect thier animals and the folks at pets plus nurse them back to health and find them good homes. this whole thing is a crock of sh-t!!! this whole thing should never have happend they took animals that should never of been taken!! pets plus you are ok by me piss on those people who are trying to ban reptiles and take away our rights and freedoms to own reptiles. john if there is anything i can do to help you have my # .

mike schofield

John was in Columbus yesterday and I purchased a nice little pastel female ball python from him (thanks John). I talked to him briefly (he is one of the busiest vendors at the show) and this seems to all have started from an employee they caught stealing and fired. As for the lizard skeleton it seems to have been an escapee that unfortunately never turned back up until it had perished. Sorry but when you deal with thousands of animals accidents happen. John says the reinspection is scheduled for sometime this week (they don't tell them exactly when) and hopefully they can put this behind them. I believe a lot of this is just sensationalism and the lack of the general publics (SPCA) knowledge of the proper care of reptiles.

Thanks for the feedback. I am glad that John was able to keep up the show schedule.

I can't make excuses for anything seen in the video's etc. I do believe that it reflected the worst of what could be found, as that is the nature of the Press. They need a story, and the ability to say in advace "we warn you that some of the pictures are disturbing" does not drive people away from the tube ! Perish the thought !

Two "lessons" do jump out at me, although there are more than two to be had here:

1) If in the business, you need to run it by the numbers. Degrees of sanitation will vary day to day and week to week, which is not an excuse for poor sanitation. But having animals that may be illegal, or without proper permits, is a mistake for a business that has so much more at risk. I don't know that illegal animals was established here yet, although it was mentioned that the crocodile monitor may have needed a permit. But lacking a permit is a tangible violation that the authories can get their hooks into if it existed.

2) It does not surprise me that a "disgruntled" employee may have initiated this. Just one more reason to always be on the up-and-up, so that you do not have a vulnerability by which someone can "get-even".

Whatever the actual truth here, it likely lies somewhere in the middle. I am sure that Fred and John found ways to improve and learn from this. My experience is with Fred, as he has been the best of buyers and always a pleasure to deal with. I would not hesitate to do business with him again.

I hope that these issues can be traced back to bad employees - but as for the whole lizard skeleton thing - that doesn't explain why multiple clutches of eggs were left to hatch and rot. Yes, accidents happen, and if just a few of these issues had been present, it wouldn't have been a huge deal. However, seems that to the reptile folks who were present at the inspection noted far too many cases of animals in very poor condition to NOT justify seizing the animals. These are people who KNOW how wholesaling works, and know that rack setups are commonly used.

ReptileMike - what exact date were you in Lockport and witnessed the upstairs area? I'm sure the SPCA here, and possibly law enforcement, would like to know what you witnessed if criminal charges are filed. Quite a few people here have concurred that the conditions took more than a couple of weeks to get to the point that they were shown in the SPCA video despite the news sensationalism.

I find it very funny that people on the BOI will outright crucify an individual or small breeder for an apparently skinny or ill-shipped animal, but because the Kicks did not scam anyone and their show animals look good, the horrible CURRENT condition of a large number of their animals gets overlooked. People seem to get far more angry when someone is screwed out of money rather than when a large group of animals is found in horrible conditions. Money makes the world go 'round I guess though...

Lauren,
The people in charge are responsible, not "bad employees".

To suggest "criminal" charges is a bit hasty, unless you know something we do not ? I would also assume that the "authorities" don't care if RepileMike saw it looking nice a few weeks back. Pets Plus attorneys might though !

Many of us do draw distinctions between between scamming, stealing, selling sick animals knowingly, not honoring TOS, ....... and what was reported by the press here. If you find it "funny" that I and others think that way, then have a good laugh on us ? Doubt it will be on Comedy Central though. It is possible that they endured an internal personal tragedy, upheavel, staffing collapse, etc, that could create this situation in a hurry (month or less). Many of us know that this is not representative of their longer term performance. Don't see anything being "overlooked" here, and think it likely the bad press has hurt them considerably already. You assume that "money makes the world go round" explains our views? I don't mean to undermine whatever motivates your views, and have no trouble if your opinion is to trash the Kicks over this. But you do seem to be in a hurry to question our opinions and motivations by sophomoric innuendo. I'd say it seems we have different takes on personal integrity vs. what has happened here.

Heh, I didn't mean "funny" in the humorous ha-ha sense. And my opinions are my opinions about the situation, just as you have yours. I do have my feelings about the response this has gotten on the BOI, and have expressed them.

Some people probably do think that "money makes the world go 'round". Do you? Probably not, and my statement was general and broad in nature, not aimed at you, Jim. Just frustration on my end for anyone who deals with animals that may have that attitude.

I said before, and I'll say again, I don't envy Pets Plus or the owners for the situation they're in, and I'm not laughing about it. I also don't sympathize with them from what I've seen, either. Those events did hurt and sicken me, and that probably comes out in my writing.

So I'll take my own advice and take some pepto and see what happens next.

A lot of people in this thread didn't seem to understand that the vet for the Buffalo Zoo was there to determine the health of animals. His name is Dr. Frank Ridgely and reptiles were his specialty before working at the zoo. I'm glad he went because SPCA individuals are not always great at determining conditions for reptiles. For instance, a lot of people here are discussing the slide bins and how everyone using them would have to be considered cruel. HOWEVER, to my knowledge, very few, if any, shoebox snakes or slide bin snakes/leopard geckos were confiscated.

So, this wasn't simply a case of "SPCA's gone wild" trying to erradicate the owership of reptiles. Many people in the wildlife department (usually heads up exotics) enjoy reptiles quite a bit. They also didn't just go in because it was only the SPCA out to get them. This situation does not appear like it will influence the ownership of reptiles in NYS in any way.

I'll leave you with this and you can judge it how you want. The Saturday before the raid, the DEC officer investigating the potentially banned reptiles said to the store that the SPCA would arrive on Monday to inspect them. Two employees THEN left for the (I believe) White Plains show. Reptile Addicts was represented by these two people at the Sunday show. The SPCA didn't arrive until Tuesday and found conditions like they were.

[quote=djs27uro]A lot of people in this thread didn't seem to understand that the vet for the Buffalo Zoo was there to determine the health of animals. His name is Dr. Frank Ridgely and reptiles were his specialty before working at the zoo. I'm glad he went because SPCA individuals are not always great at determining conditions for reptiles. For instance, a lot of people here are discussing the slide bins and how everyone using them would have to be considered cruel. HOWEVER, to my knowledge, very few, if any, shoebox snakes or slide bin snakes/leopard geckos were confiscated.

So, this wasn't simply a case of "SPCA's gone wild" trying to erradicate the owership of reptiles. Many people in the wildlife department (usually heads up exotics) enjoy reptiles quite a bit. They also didn't just go in because it was only the SPCA out to get them. This situation does not appear like it will influence the ownership of reptiles in NYS in any way.

I'll leave you with this and you can judge it how you want. The Saturday before the raid, the DEC officer investigating the potentially banned reptiles said to the store that the SPCA would arrive on Monday to inspect them. Two employees THEN left for the (I believe) White Plains show. Reptile Addicts was represented by these two people at the Sunday show. The SPCA didn't arrive until Tuesday and found conditions like they were.[/QUOTE]

That last paragraph definitely clears up some aspects of this.