Arboreals for Dummies ...er, Beginners

I'm still very much a beginner to snake keeping and know that general advice to newbies says that arboreals are trickier than some of the other snakes. But I know that two of the species that I'm interested in keeping someday are Chondros and Amethystine Pythons. So, a couple of questions:

1) What about these snakes is it that makes them harder than others to keep? What should a newbie know going into keeping either of these species?

2) How much hands-on general experience do you believe a person should have with snakes before keeping either of these species?

You can feel free to assume that the keeper in question would do plenty of research before obtaining either species. It will probably be (at the earliest) summer before I'm ready to acquire my next "pet", so I'm just information-gathering at this point in time. In addition to the above questions, I'm always willing to be pointed in the direction of information on animals I'm interested in!

What about these snakes is it that makes them harder than others to keep?

Arboreal animals tend to be far more instinctualy set in their behavioral patterns and environmental needs... This is a tendency, not an absolute but- they do stress a bit easier than terrestrial animals, it's fairly easy to simulate some dirt and leaf litter, far more difficult to simulate a tree twenty or more feet off the ground. Both in terms of the instinctual need to be "Up" as well as the environmental conditions that exist (temp, humidity). A terrestrial animal will get rained on from time to time and will become Wet. A strict arboreal species needs the proper humidity but will experience problems with an enclosure that is simply "Wet", the animal does tend to attempt to get higher than you're usually willing to build an enclosure and; behaviorally, the only organisms they encounter are predators (and they have limited options for dealing with that), Prey (which is usually somewhat less frequent than that found on the ground so they react quickly when not stressed or ill) or occasionally something to mate with, this tends to alter their actions to a strong degree when compared to some of the more popular and common species.

Most arboreals tend to more aggressive than most terrestrial snakes. I hesitate to categorize this as a serious problem because there are a few ways that it can be easily dealt with and they don't need to be handled anyway but it is something many neophyte keepers take issue with... and yes, the teeth tend to be large (and are in the two species you named).

I wouldn't really call any of these things significant barriers in their captive care and I would say that the animals are well within the realm of anyone who's willing to take some time when setting up an enclosure and do a bit of research into the animal's biology and behavior (as you obviously are). Some experience with proper manipulation of environmental conditions is helpful.

What should a newbie know going into keeping either of these species?

Start with an adult that's either very well established or captive bred and comes with detailed feeding/shed records.

Buy from a reputable dealer even if it's a bit more expensive for your first shot.

Arboreals tend to have a stronger nocturnal feeding response than many other species and stubborn feeders will usually react well to scented or alternative prey items when the environment is correct.

Those teeth do hurt a bit and they will use them. Approaching the animals properly in well lit environments will lower these tendencies to a great degree but the proper approach is something you need to get a feel for, it can't really be written out and learned. It really doesn't hurt that much in the grand scheme of things, I've stubbed my toe or bumped a funny bone and been in much more pain.

Take your time with your first animal and invest a bit more in the environment. This investment doesn't have to be additional money but a bit of forethought and time will save a lot of potential problems.

How much hands-on general experience do you believe a person should have with snakes before keeping either of these species?

Exactly two years, four months, sixteen days, ten hours and eleven minutes, heh.

It's not something that can be pinpointed, it's really a matter of personal aptitude combined with experience. These animals aren't established corn snakes by any means but they're not as difficult as a lot of popular texts will make them out to be. If you look at the requirements, do a bit of reading on the natural history and behavior and think you can do it, go for it.

My personal recommendation is the Chondros by the way. They have a reputation for being a bit more delicate but they are also smaller by a good measure (and better looking).

I know that didn't really answer too many specifics but if you have further, more detailed or specific questions, I'm sure somebody will answer them.

One other thing...

Without getting into some of the debate that exists about Localities or captive color morphs, in my personal opinion, the care information on GTPs that's been written by Greg Maxwell off Chondroweb is some of the more reliable and easy to understand information avaliable online. By no means is it the only information and by no means would I ever reccomend a single informational source but my personal opinion is that his care articles make a good springboard for more detailed questions.

Most arboreals tend to more aggressive than most terrestrial snakes.

I am perfectly willing to accept the fact that snakes don't much like humans and let them generally ignore me. I do handle my JCP regularly, but it's also a very laid back snake in general. I've got cats around for the times I want to play rather than observe.

Some experience with proper manipulation of environmental conditions is helpful.

Still working on this, though certainly better than when I first started. The JCP should be ready to be moved into an adult-sized enclosure in the next few months and I'm aiming to have a fully automated setup in regards to light, heat, and humidity. I figure I'll have a steep learning curve when I get to that point.

Start with an adult that's either very well established or captive bred and comes with detailed feeding/shed records.

Are there any pros/cons to a captive bred yearling rather than an older adult? I'm fascinated by the octogenic changes that GTPs go through and would love to see this process live and close up! However, if it is far wiser to get a snake older than a year then I'm willing to delay this point of gratification.

Arboreals tend to have a stronger nocturnal feeding response than many other species and stubborn feeders will usually react well to scented or alternative prey items when the environment is correct.

This will possibly be one of those stumbling blocks for me as I have yet to contend with any feeding problems. But, it mostly means that I'll be quite serious about buying from a reputable dealer who can get the animal quite well started for me.

Those teeth do hurt a bit and they will use them.

I'll admit up front to being a wuss, but if I weren't willing to deal with some wounds and pain from animals, I wouldn't have any pets. Having seen the teeth of GTPs, I'd guess they can do more damage than most of my other animals, but, well, they're a predator, what else should I expect? *shrug*

As an aside, I was a bit nervous with a JCP at first because of their reputation as being "nippy". Now, I've only gotten nipped once and though I found it quite startling I didn't even realize it had broken the skin for the first couple of minutes. I've gotten worse "wounds" from paper cuts! Makes me wonder what people are afraid of...

Exactly two years, four months, sixteen days, ten hours and eleven minutes, heh.

I was asking for that one, wasn't I?

My personal recommendation is the Chondros by the way. They have a reputation for being a bit more delicate but they are also smaller by a good measure (and better looking).

I'm leaning towards Chondros before Amethystines myself. Partly availablilty of the animal, partly availablility of good, easily accessed information. And, yup, partly size. If I were to get an Amethystine first, it would be both my introduction to large pythons and my introduction to arboreals, and that may be a bit too much all at once.

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions!

I'm aiming to have a fully automated setup in regards to light, heat, and humidity. I figure I'll have a steep learning curve when I get to that point.

You can always set up an enclosure well in advance of the animals arrival and monitor the conditions over a period of time to ensure that it remains within acceptable levels on all counts. When adding multiple automated systems, it's not a bad idea anyway.

Are there any pros/cons to a captive bred yearling rather than an older adult? I'm fascinated by the octogenic changes that GTPs go through and would love to see this process live and close up! However, if it is far wiser to get a snake older than a year then I'm willing to delay this point of gratification.

GTPs aren't nearly as notorious as some other species for extended seasonal hunger strikes but... A lot of females will cease eating especially when ovulating, some animals will stop feeding seasonally anyway and it's not safe to probe neonates so there's no guarantee on the gender you might be getting at a young age. Feed strikes tend to spook people the first time they happen (especially with an animal that is considered pricey, they may not be $120,000 ball pythons but $350 or $500 is nothing to sneeze at), getting an adult from a reputable dealer/breeder gives you the advantage of knowing that individual animals yearly pattern in advance as well as getting an established feeder on a set prey item. However, if you do a bit of research (as it sounds like you are doing anyway) and feel you're prepared for some of those possibilitites (they aren't absolutes) that a neonate or yearling may come with, get a neonate or yearling.

Now, I've only gotten nipped once and though I found it quite startling I didn't even realize it had broken the skin for the first couple of minutes.

Most boid strikes are like that. Unless you watch it happen or for whatever reason the animal strikes slowly, you barely feel it. If you watch it though, there is a natural tendency to jerk back which causes more damage and a bit more pain. I've been bitten by virtually every species of reptile I have kept at one point or another, GTP bites are certainly not serious or painful enough to prevent me from keeping them, it just bothers me when people say something doesn't hurt "at all", it's not a serious pain like a severed limb, and certainly not bad, but it doesn't exactly tickle.

Good information Seamus. And JDG, I agree that you would be making the much better choice with the GTP. And despite what most people say, not all of them are snappy little monsters. I currently have eight of them(with numbers 9 & 10 arriving soon) and out of that 8, only two of them have truly foul dispositions. The other 6 are pretty much poppy dog tame and they range in age from 17 months to 5 years. But I will tell you, as Seamus stated about the increased feeding response, ANY GTP no matter how sweet and calm during the day will become that snappy beast after lights out. And I will admit that GTP bites are not anywhere near as bad as Emerald bites, but they do still hurt. lol

However, I am in slight disagreement with Seamus on the age you should buy your GTP. Personally speaking, I feel that you are better off starting with a well established CB yearling than an adult. There are two main reasons, one is that a TRUE CB adult GTP will run you alot more than a yearling, and two is that adult males will often go on hunger strikes for months at a time and if you aren't prepared for that, it can be exceptionally stressful to a beginner. Females won't usually go off feed unless as Seamus said, they are ovulating and getting close to laying eggs, however they will on rare occasions arbitrarily decide to stop eating for a while, too. Also, I feel that with a yearling you get the chance to learn and grow along with your snake(and yes watching the ontogenic color change is SWEET ) and you are not stuck with a snake generally "set in its ways" as you would be with an adult.

Just be careful who it is you buy from no matter what you choose to get. There are MANY sellers out there that are selling CB adult GTPs that are fresh imports. And many imported adults do not fare well and of those that do, many of them may not breed.

Seamus put up a link to Greg Maxwell's excellent GTP care sheet and that is definitely a good jumping off point for you. There are lots of others out there, but I personally feel his is the best on the web so far. And the website it is attached to, www.chondroweb.com is an excellent resource for getting with keepers specialising in GTPS. And don't worry, it is not like certain other boards that claim to be for "advanced keepers only." Everyone is welcome and the group over there is super friendly.

Thank you, Seamus and Rob.

I've now gone through most of the information on Chondroweb and found a lot of useful stuff. I'll continue to read there to learn what I can (and to see pretty pictures!).

I figure I'll also continue to learn about the differences in GTPs ages/stages of life and make a more concrete decision on what age animal to start with closer to the time that I buy. I'm sure hunger strikes at any time, regardless of age of the animal, will be somewhat stressful to me. After researching and putting all the information together I'll be better equipped to figure out how much stress I can handle in which areas

A terrestrial animal will get rained on from time to time and will become Wet. A strict arboreal species needs the proper humidity but will experience problems with an enclosure that is simply "Wet"

Seamus, could you explain this a bit for me? I have a feeling that I'm just not parsing it correctly. How do you deal with humidity?

As an aside, a quick story....

My husband is/was afraid of snakes. He did agree to letting me get one, as long as it was not expected to get too big and I started out with a young one so he could get used to the size as it grew. He also ruled out GTPs because he said that they always "looked mean" - mind you, he knew nothing of their temperaments at all, just that the pictures of them carefully and deliberately coiled on a perch looked threatening to him. We went to the Indy reptile show to look at the animals and maybe buy something. There, we saw a few baby GTPs. Now, remember that neither of us had seen a baby in person before and that pictures often do not show scale well... I nearly fell on the floor laughing that something that tiny could possibly frighten anyone! And he did have to admit that all of a sudden they did not look all that frightening He is now fine with the idea of a GTP in the house. And I did end up buying my JCP at that show, which my husband has handled several times and he even no longer twitches when it moves

Seamus, could you explain this a bit for me? I have a feeling that I'm just not parsing it correctly. How do you deal with humidity?

It might help if I gave a few examples... More for my benifit than yours, it's easier to explain this way.

I keep Viper Boas and I keep GTPs, these animals are about as different physically as you can get while still both remaining Boids. The viper boas are built sort of like overweight dwarf ball pythons in the body, they're very thick and not suited towards climbing, they typically spend most of their time sitting in leaf litter waiting for prey. The GTP are larger anyway, but also of a much more slender build with a proportionally larger head, the perfect shape for climbing and striking out at distances. Now... on paper, the environmental conditions that are reccomended for these two species in terms of humidity look very nearly identical (depending on your source), they are both tropical animals, neither is inclined to drink standing water from a bowl and they both require a humidity up above 80% as a minimum with higher being more ideal.

In order to get the humidity up for the viper boas, I very literally pour water into the substrate and then turn it a few times to get it even. For the GTPs, I have a few assorted means of getting the humidity up, ranging from rain and misting systems down to (in the past) misting them with a spray bottle. Because of their terrestrial nature, the viper boas are adapted to getting wet once in awhile and my method of just wetting the substrate is acceptable (I do not soak them and it doesn't become MUD, but I do just pour water into the bins with a gatorade bottle), they are adapted to rain pooling and collecting on the ground and in the leaf litter that they normally inhabit so this is acceptable. The GTP, because of their arboreal nature, tend to experience rapid evaporation of any standing water that doesn't simply pour down into the ground. Humidity is the amount of evaporated water present in the air, wet is just water all over the place. If GTPs are kept wet rather than humid for extended periods of time, they will often end up with damaged scales and skin and are prone to bacterial infections.

I don't usually keep my arboreals on any substrate other than butcher paper (cheaper than paper towels or newspaper in the long run when buying a roll or five) unless I have set up a naturalistic vivarium style environment. This would make it impossible for me to utilize the same method as I do for my viper boas anyway but... if I were to attempt it, the animal would be unable to avoid getting wet and unable to get dry which would lead to problems.

My statements were simply precautionary because many neophyte keepers don't understand the difference between humid and wet and, while you certainly are showing yourself to be well beyond that, I often include it anyway, mostly out of habit at this point.

Nice information! I believe the most important aspect of keeping the GTP's is doing your homework and having a full understanding of the needs of these beauties. It has been about 20 years since I last kept any snakes, and just recently "fell" into new ownership of my first GTP. I had less than one week to prepare for his arrival and hit the internet and dug in as best as I could to learn as much as I could..... reminded me of cramming for finals many years ago.

I'm a newbie at chondros, but my old guy has thrived in my care and I'm quite confident that newbies can take excellent care of these guys by being educated and making sincere effort to cover the needs. Having so much fun with my first guy that I took the step and have already added a second one to our home! That would be my warning...... beware these are addictive!!

and...... so sweet seeing another lady interested. My hubby wasn't too fond of my reptile desires either, but am slowly winning him over. Our male is such a "clown" in his activities that you just gotta love him

Just wanted to say thanks again for all of the replies! I'm still reading and slowly adding to my knowledge base. As I mentioned before, it'll be at least summer before I'm able to take in another critter, but I'll be reading here and on ChondroWeb, and on the various breeder's sites I've found in between now and then.