The No-Insults Hybridization Debate

I've heard the "sterile" issue debated... heard some people claim that most of the hybrids are fertile, only few are sterile... others say it the other way around. If/when I ever create any hybrids of my own, I'll be taking a long hard look at these debates much more closely before I decide to sell them. If I knew of a combination that created sterile hybrids, I would have less qualms breeding them (if they were aesthetically pleasing to ME)... because 9/10ths of the arguments have to do with the animals polluting gene pools out there. They could not possibly pollute a gene pool if they are sterile.

I had a discussion concerning hybrids with a kingsnake breeder. One of the points we discussed is that we are seeing a very small snapshot of a species evolution. We say that "X" does not breed with "Y" in nature, as if the current status of anything is more than a blink of the eye considering the timeline we are talking about (in this case the timeline being the existance of snakes on this planet).

"another thing is that in ALOT of hybrid they are sterile... why? i do not know but i can speculate why.. and it is they were not meant to breed in the first place."

So following this logic, a coupling that produces offspring that is not sterile would be acceptable as that means they were meant to be bred

I think the ethical question, falls on whether the breeder keeps accurate records and forwards that information to the new owner then they have fulfilled their ethical duty. A person isn't necessarily ethical because they're never put in a position to lie, their ethical because when it counts they do the right thing.

Why I would consider hybridization of offspring. To experiment and discover new things (mostly colors and patterns). Same reason people work with "morphs" in geckos, snakes, etc. The sense of accomplishment (the one that people realize whether they breed two different locales/subspecies together and get a new patter or that someone breeding two same locale/species animals and gets good coloring or healthy offspring) that goes with breeding reptiles. It may be human arrogance but we're all guilty of that to one level or another, as we put two snakes in a box and then "brag" about all our hard work breeding

So following this logic, a coupling that produces offspring that is not sterile would be acceptable as that means they were meant to be bred

ummm no, just because you can doesn't mean you should

i am guilty of breeding leos for color pattern ect. but the fact is you cant get any wc leos right now and locality information for that matter.... if and when we are able to bring in some wild caughts from known localities and the different species and subspecies... i'll be the first to get some, be assured of that. but what we have as of now is pretty much very pretty colored leo mutts, i love them and do breed them. but i would not do this in my snake room. most all of the boas in my snake room are locale specific or true specimens from a particular subspecies of boa constrictor, and some a combination of the two

I like that "just because we can doesn't mean we should". It's true. I could give all my students A's in math, but that doesn't mean I will. (much to their dismay).

The sterile/non-sterile issue is an interesting one that I haven't heard debated before. I'm interested in learning of some of the faces of that side of the debate.

I've spent some time looking at websites that have hybrids featured... I can think of two specific ones right off the top.... one leaves a sort of flavor of "Wow, this is very interesting" and the other does not.

Let me explain some of the characteristics of the two sites without (yet) mentioning what the sites are...

One has numerous photos of hybrids, some "ugly" and some "pretty" to me. All the pictures include detailed information about the heritage of the snakes. There is no attempt to sell the animals. It's not a very professional website, just someone showing what they have created. I find it interesting. I find it educational to a degree... some crosses look "ugly" to me no matter how enthusiastic the creator of the site is about them. I'm deterred from ever trying those crosses. Other crosses look "beautiful" to me, and I'm encouraged (if only I had the right ingredient snakes, which I don't and won't buy to create the cross either) to want to create. It's a good site. I like it, it increases my like for the hybrids, and decreases my own personal desire to create said hybrids... I can have my curiousity satisfied without putting in any of the work.

Another website I don't like is VERY professional. Gives absurd prices for the animals. I've taken the time to pull a photo or two off the site and put them into photoshop only to see that realistic coloring on the background results in a snake that is nothing like advertised. When asked about the composition of the snakes created the owner of the site will never give away his "secrets" and the result is a bunch of high priced, misrepresented, ancestors-unknown snakes that look beautiful (in the altered photos) but in the end do nothing positive for me. I learn nothing.

(okay, so I'm rambling) ... in any case, these are two examples of extremes in the hybridization market out there. Make whatever conclusions you wish from my comments.

ummm no, just because you can doesn't mean you should

Ok, then sterilization is not a condition about breeding two snakes.

Personally I don't think there is a logical argument for or against breeding hybrids. I mean it's ok if it's all we have to do (leopard geckos) but not ok if we do have the local information. If there is no desire or benefit to breeding hybrids/integrades then there should be no desire or benefit to breeding such animals as leopard geckos/corn snakes/bearded dragons yet these 3 are probably the most bred reptiles in captivity. Leopard geckos and corn snakes are probably the most experimented with breeding groups there are. A large percentage of the herp community finds enjoyment and a sense of accomplishment trying to discover the next "new thing".

I'm not for sure about snakes, but hybrids such as donkeys are sterile because of a difference in the chromosome number between donkeys and horses. I don't recall the exact number, but it's something like donkeys have 62, horses have 64, therefore mules have 63. A mule cannot reproduce because his Meiosis cannot occur evenly because he has an odd number of chrmosomes in the diploid state, making evenly split haploid sex cells an impossibility
Dusty Loy

Hmmmm hybrids...

I see it as really coming down to a matter of goals. If your goal is a quality, attractive, pet or companion animal hybridization only makes sense. You select for the best traits from the widest pool possible to create an animal ideally suited for your purposes. Every single "pure bred" dog or cat on the pet market, and a fair amount of stock animals are the result of centuries of hybridization with the ultimate goal of producing an animal that was ideally suited to our purposes. Whether that was beauty, tractability, hunting, riding, war, whatever, we have for centuries manipulated the genes of animals for our own purposes. Is this ethical? Do we have the "right" to "play god"? That is ultimately an insoluble question. Each of us will have our own take on that based on our own basic assumptions. Myself, I believe that folks are pretty much free to do what they want so long as they take responsibility for their actions. If this means killing the horrible monster your breeding program has brought about, or fully informing prospective owners about the special needs of the new breed you have developed you'd better be fully prepared to do exactly that otherwise you have no business meddling in these things. Every single animal is a living being that deserves to live a full, healthy life just as much as you do. This means that it is your responsibility to provide for them even if in your mind they were a horrible mistake. That's your mistake, YOU take care of it!

Now, if your goal is the preservation of a naturally occurring species then of course, hybridization is the devil. Now, did "nature intend" for hybrids to exist? That's a lot more personal intent than I am willing to place on an impersonal force. One could argue that in a truly impersonal, random world anything can and will happen so those who choos to hybridize are simply manifesting the inevitable design of natural law.

Either way, I think there is plenty of room for both kinds of people in the hobby. The real issue here is one of honesty and record keeping. While no official registry may exist for reptiles, the more people that keep detailed records of their animal's ancestry, and demand those kinds of records from anyone they do business with the more often it will occur until eventually it becomes the default for the industry. Folks didn't used to demand pictures when buying animals from distant parties, but enough folks demanded it, and the technology existed to make it easy enough that seeing pictures of the animal you've ordered before buying it has become the industry standard. The technology exists that makes such record keeping easy, all it takes is a computer and Microsoft Excel now people just have to demand it.

JN

Wow, thank you for a very eloquent response! Bottom Line:

Be Honest

Keep Good Records

Examine your Goals Before Breeding

Take Responsibility for What You Create.

I like it.

A perfect summation, and one that should be made into a poster ! Exactly !
"before you ask if you could, you should ask if you should..."

Originally Posted by cthulhu77

A perfect summation, and one that should be made into a poster ! Exactly !
"before you ask if you could, you should ask if you should..."

And if the answer is "yes" then it's Damn the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead

aye, and a hearty Heigh Ho for them what's left behind, for them what's down below.....

Sorry, slipped into pirate mode, sort of, there for a minute.