Studding?

Is it common practice to stud males in this industry? Is there a typical "deal" that people make?

Thanks for any input.

It happens although if you read through the BOI and the Business sections you will find a number of examples of it not working out how it was intended to...

Typically the male is sent to the owner of the females because a single male can be bred multiple times and it reduces the likelyhood of problems with the gravid females.

In animals where the traits are equal, there is a 50/50 split and the owner of the females usually gets pick of the clutch and then they go back and forth taking one from there.

If there are an odd number of babies produced, there needs to be an agreement in place beforehand about how to deal with this eventuality, i.e.- who gets to keep the extra or if it will be sold and how the profits will be split.

If any babies are sold, there needs to be an agreement in place before hand as to how many will go where and for how much and who gets what amount of money... IF the clutch isn't simply split up.

In animals with disproportionate traits or highly disproportionate values (when crossing animals in order to obtain offspring that are heterozygous for one or both of the traits of the parents but when looking at disproportionatly valued traits) the agreement needs to be made before hand as to who gets what... For instance loaning a male albino boa to an individual with multiple normal females or loaning an albino ball python to someone with an axanthic as an early step towards creating snows... the owner of the animal with the more expensive trait (discounting gender) is usually entitled to a greater amount of the clutch then when breeding animals of even traits... But the exact amount needs to be agreed upon beforehand by the participating parties.

There needs to be an agreement in place as to exactly how many females a given male will be bred with and exactly which females those will be, it becomes important especially when looking at some of the above situations.

There needs to be an agreement in place about who is responsible for what in the unlikely event of any problems. If performing a breeding loan with someone a good distance away, an animal will have to be shipped, if it dies in transit from carrier mishandling going in either direction, someone won't be happy so there needs to be an agreement about responsibility IF such an action occurs. The same goes for any unknown pathenogens any of the animals might be harboring that could damage either individuals collection, feeding errors, houses accidently birning down... There simply needs to be a schedule of culpability.

The above suggestions as to who gets how many are just general guidelines, the specifics of any situation need to be worked out between the two parties well in advance, just make sure both individuals have everything in writing well in advance and plan for any potential outcomes.

I would make a personal suggestion of only entering into such a breeding loan (the preffered term although studding is probably more appropriate) with someone you know well and trust fully and hopefully living in your area, someone you can simply drive the animals in question back and forth too and can witness the entire process and assist in the incubation with. There are a lot of horror stories, many of which can be found on these boards, of animals dissapearing, people lying about the number of neonates produced, animals being sold for a lower amount than expected, shipping problems, people just running off with the animals, people trying to get animals sent to them when they do not even have anything to breed them with, shipping mishaps, animals loaned out coming back in terrible condition and the spread or potential spread of disease... So move forward with caution in these situations.

Breeding loans suck.
They expose your collection to a myriad of diseases.
They stress the animal out badly.
They involve one thing that is in short supply in this hobby/industry and that is: TRUST


Think about it:Are you going to trust the guy you loan your male out to to take good care of him?

Are you going to TRUST that this guys FACILITIES are clean and even halfway hygenic?

Are you going to, in the advent that they actually BREED, trust this guy to tell you just how MANY babies were actually produced and if any aberrant or strangely colored /patterned ones come out of the litter?

And finally, are you going to trust the other guy to ship the snake in a responsibvle manner?


WAY to much TRUST involved here. If it was someone that I know, that I have dealy with, and that is LOCAL so I can see their collection and how they m,aintain their animals..than maybe. But an unknown, or INTERNET friend, whom I havent seen his collection in person..NO WAY.


This industry is chock full of phonies and fakes, liars and cheats and more than anything else, more than anything said here, its basis seems to be based on one thing:
***GREED***
Based on that, in my opinion, breeding loans or studd arrangements for nice male snakes are not a god idea.

Solution: Buy your own female


Sincerely,

Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles

Thanks for the input guys. Unless I personally know someone local, I wouldn't do a breed loan.

Guess I'll just stick to keeping my guy, unless someone I know gets a female. One tiger retic is enough in my house....at least for a while!

houses accidently birning down...

I fully support amiable trades to help both parties reach a goal, but i don't support the idea of shipping the same animal back and forth.

Maybe I'm naive though, this will be my first year producing for the market.

I am going to be producing a ton of hets this year (as I believe outcrossing my animals to be benefitial, even though they're "only" leopard geckos and some of the big name breeders have inbred for decades without problems) and I would have no problem for example, sending someone one of my proven breeders along with some offspring in return for similar quality unrelated animals. I am producing double and even triple hets this year and I can see this sort of arrangement being very benefitial.

This sort of agreement requires a great deal of trust, but I believe it to be the most healthy method of sharing a breeding project without overstressing the animals.

Do it constantly Al, my posts are full of typos, misspellings, poor grammar and my accidently saying something that I never intended to say because I worded my thoughts incorrectly.

But they're usually semi-coherent... sort of...

... a bit...

Who CARES if you have typos in your message, unless those typos have to do with a latin name or other crucial subject matter? I HATE it when people make a big deal over typos, seriously, who reallly give a !@#$%* anyway? Nitpicky people.




Sincerely,


Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles

Fred's absolutely right about breeding loans, also about the typos but that's not as relevant.

The best way to approach a breeding loan is to not even consider it. Being the full owner of the pair or what have you is by far the best way to do it.
Even when doing loans locally problems can arise, and friendships have disintegrated over them.

As for doing long distance loans, I can count on one had the number of people I would consider entering into this situation with. The amount of trust and faith in the other parties husbandry methods excludes most everybody not within driving distance.

If someone absolutely must enter into a breeding loan, the most important thing is to get all the parameters Seamus mentioned in writing before hand signed by both parties. Even when done locally with friends.

Breeding loans usually result from either financial limitations or impatience. A person is not able to purchase unrelated pairs of an animal, or they do not want to wait until they can afford or raise up additional specimens.
Many times the result of their impatience is a good deal of problems.

Steven mentioned my preferred solution to the problem. Bite the bullet and purchase a pair initially. Locate another breeder whom you trust enough to do normal buisness with and arrange a trade of offspring to diversify the bloodline with some of your own hatchlings.
It's my opinion if an animal is worth breeding it's worth owning all the breeders.
I realize in Melissa's case neither factor is at work. Instead it's the inability to house a second animal of that size. This is understandable, but the risks of breeding loans are the same.

An education on the subject in just one thread, opinions eloquently stated,
Ya got love the internet sometimes
Thanks guy's

No breeding loans for this cowboy