Dragons Den Herp (INFO)

This thread is not meant to be a bad guy post, rather an informative post that potential buyers might be interested in.

I ordered a "Blood Dragon" from Kevin, at Dragons Den Herp.
His website:
http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/

I paid $250+$40 shipping for one of his Blood Dragons

Kevin did not have pictures of what he had, however he assured me that he had one that was 9" that was amazing, so much that it blows away the one on his website.

On March 5th when I received the Dragon I felt my stomach curl. The dragon in side as cute as he may be, looked worse then most $50 chain store dragons. Now when you pay $300 for a Blood Red Bearded Dragon you expect to get a Dragon that at least has some red in it.

Website photo:

[img]http://dragonsdenherp.com/images2/Blood3.jpg[img]

On March 5th I received the bearded dragon, and here is a picture of him. (note, he doesn't look much different from this today)






I contacted Kevin that day to see if there was a mix up, and maybe he had accidentally sent a different line of bearded dragon (as this dragon was not red at all, more yellow/brown/orange maybe)

He told me the Dragon was just stressed out from the move, fair enough. So I gave the bearded dragon about a week, and he looked about the same.

I called him back after the first week and he at first confused me for a different customer that bought a blood dragon off him at kingsnake.com
Now he said what he sent was WAY better then what was offered at king snake for the same price. I looked at what he had sold, and the pictures were of what I''d expect of a Blood Dragon.

Here is a picture of what he had for sale at Kingsnake.com (note that I did not get to see what I was buying first, nor was I given the option)



After I saw the kingsnake.com add I called back Kevin and told him it must have been a major mix up, because mine looked nothing like the website or the add on kingsnake. I sent him a email with pictures of my bearded dragon at this point to show him.

"I remember it now. That dragon is one of the best colored dragons anywhere...It is a brilliant Red/Orange throughout the entire body. You just need to give it a little time to settle-in. It looks like it is going into shed, but it still had amazing color when I packed it yesterday.
Kevin"


Now I feel really bad at this point now, because I don't buy into idea that he looks nothing like what he should due to stress. I gave the dragon till the end of the week, and he still looked the same (almost 2 weeks later now.)

I asked Kevin that I was very unsatisfied (he know this from day 1) and that he still looked bad. He didn't seem to care at all that I was very upset that what I received was nothing like what I had be lead to believe I'd receive.

I asked him to make this right and after while he said he'd return my money if I paid to send him back and that he wouldn't cover that. He also said that I'd need to send it back like it came, which would be next day air.

I check with UPS, and next day air is $90 (saver is $85) from NY to CA. Now I was only charged $40 for shipping, so I'd assume that part of the shipping was reduced due to volume sales and bundled into the price.

So I have the option of accepting this dragon, or spending nearly another $100 of money I don't have to try again with a new breader that might, or might not be more honest in their descriptions.

I feel like I've been mislead and cheated by Kevin and Dragons Den Herp. Now, I know that color isn't guaranteed, but when you order a Red Dragon and get a brown one I think you'd be pretty upset too. Then you are offered to fix it if you spend another $100.



Here are the original threads I made at other forums if you are curious how this story came to be and developed.

bearded-dragons.com forums
http://bearded-dragons.com/boards/in...c,20562.0.html

Beardeddragons.org forums
http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Unfortunately you are not the first person I know to have the same complaint. I'm very sorry.

copied from another forum I belong to


I am typing this in here because this area is restricted. Any member can do with this info as they see fit. You can even take the credit for it. I am only the messenger and I am going to give you the ability to prove this to yourself.

First I need you to download a few things to "open your eyes" so to speak. Oh and if this sounds like I am leading you on to some joke or something, I assure you I am not

First you need to run Firefox for this. If you do not have Firefox installed you can download it here.
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/

If you are already running Firfox, then great. If not after you have installed the above, if Firefox does not auto launch, go to your desktop and click on the Firfox icon.

Ok at this point you should now be viewing this thread through Firefox. Now you need an additional plugin from firefox. It is called the EXIF Veiwer and can be found here.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3905

It should install and then you need to restart Firfox for it to be auto enabled. Nothing will look different at this point. But you now have the tools needed to do the following.

While in Firfox go to kingsnakes classifieds for selling Bearded dragons. Here is a link to go directly there.
http://market.kingsnake.com/index.php?cat=51

Look for an ad posted by Dragons Den Herp. Here are 2 ad that I have found. They may have expired though by the time you click the links so you may have to search the ads your self. Here are the 2 that are currently listed.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=51&de=579447
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=51&de=579446

more on the next post

you see the photos on the right side of the ad? They are thumbnails. Click on it and you will see the larger version of the image. Right click on it and Choose save image as.. and store the image to your dar drive somewhere. Now go to your photobucket account and upload the photo. There are a total of 6 images you can save from his ads. If you know how to directly take a url from one place and save it to your PB account, you can save a step but if not, you can simply save the image first and upload it.

Now here is where the magic happens. Click on the image in your PB accout while you are using Firfox and when you are veiwing the full size image right click on it. There will be a choice titled "View image EXIF data". choose that and a box will open that will give you image info. The important part is that it will show you a picture of the image on the right side that is displayed in the ad. BUT if you scroll down further, you will also see an image titled Embedded Thumbnail. And the photos is identical but the colors are not the same. What you are looking at is the embedded photo BEFORE and post pstrocessing has occured. This is something not normally veiwed and more importantly, this is something most people who are Frauds are careful to cover up. You will now see that Dragons Den Herp's dragons have all be altered and the colors have been significantly altered through photo editing to make the dragon brighter than they really are. And at a price of 250 bucks a dragon, this is a big deal. This is a Breeder who is supposedly known to be a very reputable person. A person who has made a great deal of money banking on the fact that the rest of the BD community will back him up and simply tell a person that they dragon will "brighten up" or may be "in shed" or the dragon has dulled up from " relocation stress" and this is not true in his case. They will never do any of this cause they did not look like this in the first place. The wool has been pulled over the eyes of many folks. And he has made a crucial mistake by not eliminating the embedded photo. Whats more is DDH does not offer a money back garauntee based on color so you are pretty much stuck with what you have purchased even though you have bought it under false pretenses. It i bullshit if you ask me. Here is a fellow over at BD.org that is having an issue right now.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/view ... &sk=t&sd=a
Notice the community regurgitating info exactly as they have been instructed over the years based upon what we know about dragons? This is exactly how this breeder has been able to do what he does over and over again.

Also if you do not want to do the legwork of finding the breeders ad directly and saving the images and uploading them and veiwing them yourself you can cheet and go to page 2 of the BD.org thread where this member has posted images of what his dragon was supposed to look like and you can right click that image and you will see the same type of embedded thumbnail inside of the main image and see that it is not the same colors. But I gae the long manner first above so that there is no question as to where or how the photo in the BD.org thread came from.

For fun there is an image posted by wigglesorth that is purposely been photoshopped and if you viwe that image, there is no embedded thumbnail that shows the original. I am not sure why but you can see that the image was created using PS CS2. So there has been obvios post processing done.

Now if you like you can uninstall Firefox if you like. I have posted this here as I do not any involvement other than providing you the tools if you want them to make better decisions. I did not come up with this all my own, I am a messenger. I believe teh original thread starter is now aware of what he has bought. This may be kept silent and swept under the rug or it may turn into a bigger isue. I have never purchased from this breeder and therefore have not been affected and so I really wish no more involvment than this thread.

I pulled the EXIF data from the ad photo posted here. I was then able to view both the original thumbnail and the altered finished product that was used in the KS ad. Here are the both the photos. The before and after, as it were. Obvious tampering/color enhancing done for purposes of duping innocent customers.
Kevin, you ain't the sharpest tool are you? Just another dull, dishonest tool.

~ Laura Bolt

Sounds like Kevin should've stuck to painting and decorating. Ladies and gentlemen, the myth of Kevins red dragon is BUSTED!

l.o.l.

Steven Barnes

I think it would be appropriate to rename this thread > Dragons Den Herp (Bad Guy). Does anyone need further convincing? I do not. I honestly think it is kind of sad for members new in the hobby to get ripped off by a professional. I am sure someone here knows Kevin to let him know he is being called out on the BOI. If I was that devious I would probably hide out too. I honestly believe this is just the tip of a very large iceburg.
Jack

First of all, the dragon that I sent to Mademporer, when warm and colored-out, looks exactly like it does in the picture. Regarding photoshop: Our dragons are housed outside, in bright sunlight, and it is very difficult to get a photograph showing true representation of color without changing exposure or adding/subtracting contrast. When I post a picture of a dragon, I often have to add contrast and darken the exposure to make the dragon appear the way it looks in person. As for Mademporer: I told him that I would gladly take the dragon back and give him a full refund, or another dragon because I know how the dragon should look if the heating requirements are met. In fact I often get calls from people telling me that their dragon is not as colorful as they had expected, and that is usually because they are not keeping their dragon warm enough. Once they crank up the basking area to a surface temp of 110 degrees+, the dragon almost always colors up and I get another call telling me of the difference. Most books don't recommend a basking area that is warm enough, but, if you go outside on a sunny day and feel the ground, it is well over 110 degrees. I have recorded bearded dragons basking on surface temperatures well over 130 degrees so I know that there is no danger in providing a 110 degree spot for them (as long as they can retreat to a cooler area if needed). Anyway, let me say this regarding photos and color: I often add contrast to, or change the brightness of, pictures that I post of my bearded dragons. I NEVER do this to mislead people, or misrepresent an animal. I only do this to compensate for the bright sunlight and to make the picture show true representation of the dragon at that time. In addition, you can look all over the World, but I don't think you will find anyone who will tell you that I sold them a dragon and I didn't offer 100% support...including the option of returning that dragon for a full refund.
Kevin Dunne

Why not just take pics as they are and post them that way? If you think their coloration needs explaination, then place in your ad that its hard to capture their true colors. Let them be pleasantly surprised instead of terribly disappointed!

Cheryl McDuffa

[quote]First of all, the dragon that I sent to Mademporer, when warm and colored-out, looks exactly like it does in the picture. [quote]

What picture are you referring to? The picture of the dragon you sent is not colored-out by any means. I keep him at 110* like recommended with a Halogen and a Mega-Ray MVB. Two weeks later he looks nothing like the other pictures, that's probably because the ones in your other pictures don't either because you openly admit you photoshop them.

Regarding photoshop: Our dragons are housed outside, in bright sunlight, and it is very difficult to get a photograph showing true representation of color without changing exposure or adding/subtracting contrast. When I post a picture of a dragon, I often have to add contrast and darken the exposure to make the dragon appear the way it looks in person.

When your camera takes pictures of Red Dragons and shows them as brown... either your camera is broken or you need a new pair of glasses.

As for Mademporer: I told him that I would gladly take the dragon back and give him a full refund, or another dragon because I know how the dragon should look if the heating requirements are met.

Yet $89 for shipping is a pretty big deterrent to return, I imagine that is often the case to for your unsatisfied buyers. further more, it's easy to stall the customer with claims of stress causing color change, and after two weeks most unsatisfied customers would rather just live with their mistake then spend nearly $100 on shipping.

Once they crank up the basking area to a surface temp of 110 degrees+, the dragon almost always colors up and I get another call telling me of the difference.

Do you honestly believe that the dragon you sent (see photo) will morph into the blood dragon pictures you advertise with a day of 110* light
Well 2 weeks later with 110* like recommended and it still looks the same.
(Temp done by temp-gun and digital probe.)