Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

I originally posted this here for opinions only but it was bumped to the general discussions forum for failure to provide SUBJECT name in topic line. Todd Smith's addy is y_knot@pacbell.net
This regards a situation that began almost two weeks ago when I received a '00 male hypo DH ghost said to be produced by Jeremy Stone and a female '01 anery produced by Boa Republic for a total of $1,450 shipped. I say "said to be produced by Jeremy Stone" because I have no proof of this or that this male hypo is actually het for anything because the proper paperwork I requested was never provided by Todd Smith. When asked if they were feeding on f/t rats I was told "Yes, they are feeding on frozen/thawed, tame, and in excellent health (neither one has ever been sick)."
What I received was another story altogether. The female anery is not at issue here except if there's a health issue with the other animal, she could have possibly been contaminated by the male since they were shipped together. Each have been separated from one another since their arrival and are in strict quarantine.
Herein lies the problem. The hypo DH ghost is extremely skinny for his length and being an '00 weighs in at a whopping 3 pounds. Each and every time I've tried to feed him a f/t rat he's wanted no part of it so I contacted Todd. He informed me that the male was used as a breeder this season and therefore thin and possibly not eating because he's still in the breeding mode. I was told to wiggle the prey to simulate live prey and dose the hypo with Flagyl since he's had good success using this to stimulate animals to feed again after breeding. I tried the wiggling routine to no avail but don't believe I should be expected to dose an animal with something to get it to feed. The animal was sold to me as feeding and judging by its' appearance hasn't been for a long time. In addition to this the animal's been acting strangely looking up at nothing for extended periods of time (stargazing). I wrote Todd telling him I believe this animal was misrepresented as feeding and healthy which it is obviously not, that it had all of the symptoms of IBD, and that I wanted to send the animal back for a full refund of $1,000. Initially, he told me he'd take the hypo back and get him feeding again. I told him it would take 4 months of weekly feedings to get this animal up to a healthy weight and that I wanted a refund because I didn't pay that kind of money for a nonfeeding animal that was represented as feeding fine.
Today Todd has agreed to "meet me half way" and refund me $750 for the animal if it arrives alive in CA by this Thursday. After this day I'll lose my option for a refund or anything on the animal if he doesn't receive the snake alive. I have told him that this animal's going back but I don't feel I should have to take a $250 loss because I was shipped an animal that should never have been sold in this condition in the first place. Please don't ask me about the sellers guarantees because I feel the real issue here is misrepresentation. I was never given proof of this animal's origin or its genetics that it's a genuine het for anery, and I was assured it was healthy and feeding. To me these are reason enough why the seller should refund me the full value of $1,000 and that would be the end of it. What would you do in my situation and do you agree with this sellers policy? __________________
Greg Riso

Greg

How long a time period elapsed after receiving the animals before you notified the seller of your dissatisfaction?

I received the animals on Wed. 3/19 and attempted to feed both animals the following night on Thurs. I had to go away until the following Monday evening so I was unable to contact Todd until Tuesday morning. I wrote the following letter:

Subj: Re: Animals Received
Date: 3/25/2003 9:15:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: MATRIXNINJA70
To: y_knot@pacbell.net


Todd,

I was out of town and unable to respond until now. The pic of the hypo het for anery doesn't show in your e-mail even though when I open it there's a description there and an indication that there are two images loading yet only the anery shows.
I'm very concerned about the hypo being so thin for his length. Especially since I've tried feeding him twice now and he's not been interested in anything. The day after he arrived I placed a f/t medium rat in with him and he wouldn't touch it. The anery was right on the same type food item. I decided to let him wait until I returned late last night and again offered him food and he didn't show any interest then either. When I received this pair I commented that both animals looked good. By this I was referring to their condition after shipping. I saw the male as looking pretty lean and didn't think much of it. Now after seeing his lack of interest in feeding I'm much more concerned if this animal has been a problem feeder for a while or has stopped feeding altogether as he's much thinner than any boa I've ever had for this length.
If I can't get this guy to feed soon I'd like to send him back to you. I feel he's had ample time to settle in and his husbandry conditions are optimal and all of my other 30+ boas are all feeding fine. Both he and the anery have been quarantined from my other animals and from each other so you need not be concerned about them being contaminated. I'll try again today to offer him another rat as maybe he's a daytime feeder and just to give him another chance.

Greg
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I was away and unable to contact Todd most of this period. Of course I wasn't overly concerned that the hypo didn't feed the night after having been shipped but I was clearly alarmed and worried when the animal was not interested in feeding five days later.

Greg,

In my opinion a full refund is deserved. Flagyl to stimulate feeding? Yes, particularly in any animal that has suffered from regurgitation problems due to a protozoan infection of the GI tract (Although I am not saying this is the case).

Good luck!

greg

let me ask you a question..is this person todd in no california and his wife is a teacher?
im trying to establish his identity a litte more clearly.
i think he also had a rick straub male for sale that was being represented as a breeding male.

thanks
kim

Kim, To answer your question yes, this is the same person. He's even given me an address to send the animal back to which must be where his wife works. Here's a copy of his last letter to me.:

Subj: Re: Return and Refund for Hypo
Date: 3/31/2003 2:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: y_knot@pacbell.net
To: MATRIXNINJA70@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Greg,

Here is how I'd like to resolve this situation, since there is some health question about the hypo (het anery) male on your part. As I stated in my previous e-mails, I sent you two, healthy feeding animals. I said that the male was used for breeding this year and that many breeder males are thin and reluctant feeders after going through breeding season.

Since many things can happen to an animal after shipping (temperature extreme exposure, new facility environs, the simple act of shipping itself), I am willing to meet you more than halfway financially.

(1) Send the male back to me on Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03) guaranteed live arrival (via FedEx or UPS...your choice) to the address below and I'll refund you $750;

(2) Send the male back to me on Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03)guaranteed live arrival (via FedEx or UPS...your choice) to the address below and I'll get him feeding again on frozen/thawed rats and send him back.

When I receive the hypo (het anery) male alive on Thursday, I will either refund the $750 or work with him to get him feeding again on frozen/thawed rats and ship him back to you (as stated above in Option #2).

Please ship this Wednesday (4/2/03) for a Thursday (4/3/03) arrival (via FedEx or UPS guaranteed Next Day delivery) to the following address:

Pathways Charter School
Attn: Karri Smith
4008 Bohemian Hwy
Occidental, CA 95465

***If I do not receive the animal alive on Thursday (4/3/03), I will consider that you have decided to keep the animal and the opportunity to return the animal is no longer available.***

Respectfully,

~Todd
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As you can read he's emphasized the words "live arrival" four times. I'm going to pack the animal very carefully but what's to say this person couldn't purposefully kill the hypo once it reaches them to instantly absolve them of any responsibility? Oops! sorry Greg, the animal didn't make it so I guess you're out of luck! I'm not saying that they would do this. I'm simply saying they could do this and not be out one cent. I've got everything to lose here in any scenario. If the animal arrives fine according to Todd I have a choice of him getting the animal back feeding or $750 which is $250 less than the figure we talked about for just this animal by itself. I asked more than once for a $1,000 refund and this is the best he says he'll do. If you're contemplating doing business with this person regarding the Rick Staub animal you mentioned earlier you may want to rethink that one. Do you honestly think I should take ANY loss for being sent an animal that NEVER should have been sold?

I just want to make sure I've got this story straight. You sent this guy, whom you didn't know, $1000 for a snake you'd never even seen a picture of??? If that is correct, then you are crazy period. And if that is correct then I think you are somewhat at his mercy. I agree that $250 is steep for taking the animal back, but these are all issues you should have worked out ahead of time. I can't imagine sending someone $1000 for a single animal of that type w/o seeing pictures and copies of the paperwork first. Yeah, you can try to fall back on the old, "well, I took his word for it." but, cmon, you've got to know better.

First of all let me clarify that there was a pic of the hypo het for anery posted in the ad at Kingsnake but I have no way of telling when it was taken. The animal I received was thinner. My mention in the letter concerning the pic not coming through was regarding his certification. Since he couldn't come up with any original paperwork on either animal he decided to send me a letter with his personal certification that the pictured animal were what he said they were. The main problem I have with this is the animal in question here, the one which accounted for 2/3rds of the sale price of the pair had no picture enclosed in his "certification." I had requested original documentation but received the following.:

Subj: Re: Animals Received
Date: 3/21/2003 2:54:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: y_knot@pacbell.net
To: MATRIXNINJA70@aol.com
CC: gohmer2000@yahoo.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Greg,

For your records...This is to confirm that the '01 anerythristic female (captive-produced by Boa Republic) and the '01 hypo (het for anerythrism) captive-produced by Jeremy Stone pictured below were sent to you on 3/18/03. If there are any questions, please feel free to e-mail or call.

Thanks,

~Todd
707-576-3927


'01 Hypo (het anery) Male (CB Jeremy Stone)


'01 Anerythristic Female (CB Boa Republic)
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Under the first heading for the hypo het anery there was no pic. There was one for the normal anery that doesn't copy and paste here. I'm not concerned about the anery because I've verified him through pics at Boa Republic's website. Also he refers to the hypo het anery as being a 2,001 when in the original ad at Kingsnake it was advertised as a 2,000.

Greg

i cant understand why you would have to take a 250.00 hit for sending the snake back..whats the logic in that?
this bothers me alot about this deal....doesnt seem fair.

k

Greg,

First let me say that I do not think you should lose $250 if you send the animals back to Todd......Secondly, I think Todd Smith is a good guy and has a vast knowledge of animals and do not think he sent you a sick animal. Todd is correct in saying that animals do not always react well to shipping and something could have happened during transit. Does this mean you should have to give the animal meds to eat? Absolutely not...Does this mean Todd should agree to work something out with you? For sure.....I hope that you work things out with him as I find Todd Smith to be a good guy and someone who is in this hobby not to get rich but instead to produce nice animals!

Oh, before I forget, I have some 00' males that are only 3 pounds and they breed like champs....As the matter of fact all of my males are smaller then most breeders would keep their animals but this by no means indicates that they are unhealthy.....If the male is not eating perhaps he wants to breed.....Some of my male boas only eat for 3 months out of the year after they start the breeding season...As the matter of fact some would rather breed then eat! Again, good luck in resolving this dispute with Todd!