animal planet

lmao WTF does Ron Paul have to do with anything? No one I know denies a serious problem with Fl and the wild population there. But seriously, thank you for gracing us with your reflections on how to solve the problem. Yes, WE (including YOU) are the problem. After all, youve been doing this for umpteen years. If you dont see the REAL issues behind the propaganda then I hope what you fight/fought for is still worth fighting for when we will read about the rights we once had.

Do you part, educate the masses. Keep being in the back pocket of the HSUS and PETA so they keep you on their list of people to get their confiscated animals. I mean after all, you received 2100+ animals out of 26000 right? The only people I see that received anything from that raid are people preaching their cause.

I didn't read all of this thread I just graced through it. So if iI repeat something I apologize. I agree with most of you, it's bullsh!t what AP is doing. They are scaring the general public and creating a bad persona for reptile hobbyists. But I think there needs to be sticker guidelines for exotic animals including snakes/reptiles. Otherwise our hobby is going to turn into the aquarium hobby, with certain animals you can't keep in certain states (which is a bunch of BS too).

I participate in falconry, there is a strict licensing protocol in order to keep and hunt with birds. IMHO our hobby needs something, with levels & certain animals in each level, like that so D-Bags off the street doesn't go and buy a retic because he thinks it's cool.

Just my 2 cents

lol I just joined that FB group against AP.

Originally Posted by Reptileman81

Ok I really cant think of the big name reptile breeder down south that I know of. But he was interviewed for the playboy mag middle of last year. It states from mostly his words as well as many other well known and respected people in the rep industry. The government is blowing the whole thing out of proportion to get money. Money they plan on using to fund all kinds of stuff. One thing being to fix up the everglades from what we man kind have done to it. Yes there is a infestation of a animal not from this part of the world. But they are trying to say that at the time of the playboy issue that the government estimated over a 100,000 burms loose down there. When the number is less then 10,000. Yes we do have a problem in FL with these animals and yes there are people out there that just let stuff loose. But its not as big as you put it off to be. When the 6 trackers they had down there (before they declared open season on burms in a national protected I might add wet land) were only coming across a snake a month the number is not as big as the government wants you to believe. The one snake that was found by the daycare center was planted by one of the trackers to a get the grants and laws going and to be get him a job to do nothing but drive up and down some dirt back roads hoping to come across a snake. Yes it is a propaganda made up by the government and implemented by out sourcing people like animal plant to make the world worry that they will be eaten my a 100 foot snake. (I know I way over exaggerated the 100 feet lol).

Yes professional academics sometimes fudge numbers and sensationalize things in order to get grants. But this problem is real and it is serious. And I know a lot of people in the herp community in FL who say the same thing.

I am a wildlife rehabber, and deal with wildlife on a daily basis. I am a member of NWRA, and so I listen to what I hear from other people who deal with rescuing native wildlife, as I do.

I know people who have gone into the Glades and found several large constrictors in a single outing. That's convincing enough to me, and I don't need to justify numbers to you to prove my point. I don't lay claim to any numbers, and you would be foolish to do so as well. It's well accepted that such creatures are getting quite established in the region, so playing numbers games with you is a little moot at this point.

Essentially what we have here is more denial by people such as yourself. You don't champion that there is "NO" problem. You simply want to debate numbers and state it's not "that bad", and that it's 'propaganda". You are wallowing in the mud trying to occlude the waters and split hairs, and claiming "propaganda" in order to dismiss the problem. That too shows a lack of leadership and commitment in this community, which I am a part of, and which will further show people in that community to be irresponsible and unwilling to take responsibility and self-police. The denial of the problem, no matter how far along you think it is, only serves to further hurt the community as a whole, and the whole community will suffer for that kind of attitude.

Originally Posted by StrictlyExotics

lmao WTF does Ron Paul have to do with anything? No one I know denies a serious problem with Fl and the wild population there. But seriously, thank you for gracing us with your reflections on how to solve the problem. Yes, WE (including YOU) are the problem. After all, youve been doing this for umpteen years. If you dont see the REAL issues behind the propaganda then I hope what you fight/fought for is still worth fighting for when we will read about the rights we once had.

Do you part, educate the masses. Keep being in the back pocket of the HSUS and PETA so they keep you on their list of people to get their confiscated animals. I mean after all, you received 2100+ animals out of 26000 right? The only people I see that received anything from that raid are people preaching their cause.

You seemed to want to claim some insight about gov propaganda, as if I am not aware of it. That's what that statement had to do with.

Your attitude and libelous allegations toward me further shows the nature of those like you that permeate the reptile community and cry havoc at anything negative being said about the reptile trade, which happens to be true. You also show how you shut down and start name calling when you don't have a more legit point to voice. The only thing more you could do now is stick your fingers in your ears and cry "I'm not listening! I'm not listening!"

You don't know me jack, so don't tell me who's pocket I am in or what my philosophy is. I rescued animals that needed rescuing. I was selected because I am one of the few reptile rescues nearby with experience with many of the animals, and I brought my zoo and wildlife rehabber contacts on board to help with it. I'm not part of the problem, because I never released any non-natives of mine, and never sold non-natives when I was selling. I sold only natives...so better moderate your accusations of what I do and did.

Perhaps nobody you know was involved with the USGE rescue, because they weren't up to par and weren't legit rescuers. Most of these animals were wild caught, and nobody in the pet trade got access to them. That's standard procedure, and if you have a problem with that, it says more about you than it does me.

These animals didn't go to individuals. They went to groups. Herp Societies and zoos were on board, so don't give me that crap about preaching HSUS and PETA talking points. You don't know what you are talking about. SPCA went against PETA. PETA wanted them all euthanized. Every one of them...so don't talk about things you know nothing about. Sounds like you are just pissed like many of your friends, who couldn't get anything on the list because you didn't meet criteria. Too bad.

First of all, NOT one person here has called you anything. Secondly, YOU point out that WE are all at fault here, well, everyone but you. Thirdly, just because the general populatin of reptile keepers do not believe in all the "hype" of what our govt tells us, doesnt make us naive.

Like you stated, "You dont know me, Jack". Practice what you preach. You have no clue as to what I believe and how I am. You come here and single out my post citing propaganda when, in the very definition of the word, is a factual statement no matter how you wish to twist it.

No one here has denied any problems in Fl. You even go so far to attack someone who agrees that there, in fact, IS a problem in Fl. What I dont understand is, when are you going to get to the point of your argument.

You act like we DONT think that there are problems in the industry, much more than what is going on in the Glades. Yes, there is irresponsible ownership, just like there is in anything. Do I think we can police our own hobby, absolutely not. Hell, we cant even see eye to eye.

So... Keep on your warpath saying how irresponsible we all are and how all-mighty knowing that you are. When the legislature passes, we will all end up keeping hots since they werent on the list. Until you familiarize yourself with the people you so call, accuse of wrong-doing, you should also look in the mirror. Youve been in this business 25 yrs, probably a little over 40 yrs old max. Tell me that you know where EVERYONE of your animals are. If you dont, then you have created to this mess more than I have because I can say with almost certainty, I can.

Ive owned reptiles for over 20 yrs now and even had an interest them for 30. I dont sell much and I even offer a buy back program so people like you dont end up with my animals.

I didnt want anyhting to do with the animals in the raid. I would have declined had someone even asked. I would prefer to keep myself out of the back pocket of the HSUS, PETA, as well as the ASPCA. I dont think anyone here in this thread has said that they wanted those animals as well. Dont even know how that was brought up and for what purpose.

Anyhow, continue with your rant. I am sure we all want to hear more about how bad we all are.

Ok here is some links Fireside to the article that I was talking about maybe after you read it you might change your mind a bit. I also think it is crazy for people that dont even live in FL to mouth there opinion about something they dont really know anything about. You make it sound like we cant step out of our doors without a wall of pythons waiting to devour us.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=168343

Ok could only find one link to someone that posted the article but they posted pics of it very huge. Read it maybe you will be enlightened on how it is all a government scam and cover up to get money for other things not related to the issue.

i have a great idea if you do not like what fauna and its members stand for ie: ethical ownership, and breeding of the animals we love. we are all on here trying to learn more about the animals and hobby. so if you can not add constructive critisim or offer an op with out getting heated a and blaming every one for a problem that started back in the 70'S find another forum to bitch. and people eating tasty animals is just another (peta) is just another one of those propaganda group. as for rehabilitators most are part of the problem instead of a solution.

Originally Posted by Fireside3

Steve Irwin did do a ton of good, and in my opinion it far outweighs any aspect you feel might have been "poor practice".

I regard your opinion as a matter of relativity and experience. I have been tailing Crotalids for about 25 years, and never been fang bitten. Only nicked once by a rear tooth. Steve Irwin also did this all his life, and to my knowledge was never bitten by a hot. It wasn't even a snake that got him. Granted it wasn't responsible of the producers of his show to air such footage to the would be imitating public, but that is part of what got him killed...pressure from his producers to take more chances, and with animals with which he had no comparable experience, as he did with snakes and crocs.

If I and a couple of my friends always walked out into traffic without looking and never got hit, does that mean it's a good idea?

Just because you and Mr. Irwin have been doing it forever doesn't mean it's "good practice." Ask any herpetologist--yes, I mean that. (And I don't mean people who call themselves herpetologists; I mean people with degrees in this stuff and with extensive experience with hots.)

Personally, I would opt against tailing any Elapid, and in my older age I mainly confine my tailing activities these days to impromptu rescue attempts from a road...but the fact remains that with certain venomous snakes and certain situations, I personally feel comfortable "tailing" if need be, and I don't see it as necessarily reckless. It might be reckless for someone of lesser skill and experience.

And how, pray tell, does one learn to do this without "skill and experience"? In other words, how does one get experience? By tailing hots! So...tell me who, of those who tail hots, immediately had enough experience doing it so that it was not reckless?

Originally Posted by Fireside3

You can call it propaganda, but the problem is a real FACT. If there weren't irresponsible reptile keepers in the hobby, there wouldn't be this problem then would there?

1. Show me the proof of irresponsible reptile owners causing the Burm problems in Florida.

As a rescuer and wildlife rehabber, I'd say the answer is that you should do a better job of policing your hobby, and a BIG item on my list with sellers...is INDISCRIMINATE sales!

Again, show me proof of #1 above. Once you have proven that, then you can start blaming people for indiscriminately selling Burms, etc. I'm not saying this isn't a problem (I have my own views about whether pet stores should be able to sell large constrictors); I'm saying there is no proof it caused this problem.

I have been involved with herps for over 25 years, and I was even a wild collector in a past life before being reformed as a rescuer and wildlife rehabber. It's my opinion that most sellers simply make a sale to whomever has the money, and a lot of times this is long distance, and don't know the buyer at all.

How many sellers have you directly spoken with about this? Anything else is hearsay.

Second, the problem species aren't often high dollar animals to begin with. I get contacted frequently about taking in big dangerous species that the people can't GIVE away! Whether its a "hot", or a Burmese or Retic, or a big male Iguana with a bad attitude. Those kinds of animals end up getting dumped by irresponsible buyers. This hobby is all too full of those kind.

Show me these non-high-dollar hots. I guess you should first quantitatively state your definition of "high-dollar" so we're all on the same page.

The problem isn't with the adult reptiles. It's with people buying them as babies without being informed of how big/nasty/whatever they get. You should not be comparing cost of the adults because that's not where the root of the problem is.

I see a lot of denial and putting heads in the sand when it comes to these issues in the herp community. I was part of taking in animals from the SPCA Arlington,Tx. / USGE seizure. As an SPCA Placement Partner, my rescue org took in more than 2,100 of the 26,000+ animals confiscated from USGE. During and after this event, I saw a lot of people in the herp community with their fingers in their ears about the situation...claiming that it was all "animal rights" activists fabricating evidence. I saw a complete knee jerk dismissal from many in the herp community, who did not look objectively at evidence at all, simply because PETA or SPCA were involved.

I would like to see your exact numbers on the fraction of the herp community who thinks it was animal rights activists fabricating evidence. A few loud people arguing on an Internet messageboard is not "a lot."

The problem of encroachment by non-native species in the southeast is not all at the feet of irresponsible individual keepers who let them loose. Some of the blame is on importers of wild caught animals too, which pass through ports like Miami. This community is still rife with that kind of trade too, and USGE and Jasen Shaw exemplified that. Shaw is now wanted by the feds for smuggling in case anyone hadn't heard.

What are the fractions of invasive species introduced by pet-owners? What are the fractions of invasive species introduced by importers? You need to show evidence, not hand-waving.

Read about the brown tree snake in Guam and how it got there. (Hint: You're gonna have to start blaming the Wright brothers.)

The fact that many herp keepers are responsible does not negate the truth that far too many are not, and that there is a SERIOUS non-native invasive species problem in FL. and the rest of the southeast, and this has been caused in LARGE part by reptile importers and irresponsible reptile keepers. I recently talked to a friend in Ft Lauderdale, and was shocked that it is worse than even I thought.

Again, show me the evidence this is mainly caused by importers and pet-owners.

Also, I'd like you to show me the type of pet where all owners are responsible. Definitely not dogs and cats, that's for sure.

I don't have the particulars of this broadcast by animal planet, but I do happen to know the problem is real, and it is a big one. I also happen to know that many people in this community label anything and everything that they don't agree with as "animal rights propaganda".

Who, in the reptile community, says the Burms in Florida are not a problem? For heaven's sake, USARK is one of the only groups actually trying to do something about the problem instead of trying to pass laws that will do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.

And by the way...don't try the "do you believe everything you gov tells you" line with me...I've been a field trainer and Constitutionalist patriot since 1994 when I left the US Army....long before anyone ever thought of a "Tea Party" movement...and long before most of you ever heard of Ron Paul...so save it.

Cool! I've been a member of the Republican party since almost that time as well! That must mean I know a lot more than y'all!

I know people who have gone into the Glades and found several large constrictors in a single outing. That's convincing enough to me, and I don't need to justify numbers to you to prove my point. I don't lay claim to any numbers, and you would be foolish to do so as well. It's well accepted that such creatures are getting quite established in the region, so playing numbers games with you is a little moot at this point.

Wow, you have one outing. That's one data point. That's not even enough data to try to estimate the error!

If you want to convince us that what you're saying is more than just you blowing off at the mouth, then yes, you do need numbers.

Yes, they're established. Does that say anything about the numbers of them actually living in the 'Glades? Absolutely not.

Essentially what we have here is more denial by people such as yourself. You don't champion that there is "NO" problem. You simply want to debate numbers and state it's not "that bad", and that it's 'propaganda". You are wallowing in the mud trying to occlude the waters and split hairs, and claiming "propaganda" in order to dismiss the problem. That too shows a lack of leadership and commitment in this community, which I am a part of, and which will further show people in that community to be irresponsible and unwilling to take responsibility and self-police. The denial of the problem, no matter how far along you think it is, only serves to further hurt the community as a whole, and the whole community will suffer for that kind of attitude.

Uhhh, okay. Let's get on the same page, here since it's obvious you're misreading our intentions.

The propaganda we're referring to in this thread is not that the problem is small or not a big deal. We're talking about the propaganda from Animal Planet (among others) that exists only to rile up the public about Burms in Florida and make them think that the snakes are going to come into their backyards to eat their children. It's about the propaganda that tries to convince people that no one should own any of these creatures. It's about the propaganda that tries to convince people that pet owners are to blame. It's about all the propaganda with one motive: ignoring how to fix the problem in Florida.

It's not about trying to downplay the problem in Florida. It's about trying to downplay the whole snakes are evil, they're everywhere, they will migrate to your area, we need to pass all kinds of stupid laws to make people think we're doing something when we actually won't be doing anything about the actual problem in Florida.

I'm not part of the problem, because I never released any non-natives of mine, and never sold non-natives when I was selling.

Hey, cool, I haven't either, so I'm not a part of the problem! Great! I'll go on my way now, doing absolutely nothing to help the FL problem....

Perhaps nobody you know was involved with the USGE rescue, because they weren't up to par and weren't legit rescuers. Most of these animals were wild caught, and nobody in the pet trade got access to them. That's standard procedure, and if you have a problem with that, it says more about you than it does me.

I don't see the point of this...except to add a few steps up to your high horse.