Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

Originally Posted by DaveyFig

If it is a female, then the original shipping should be deducted for the refund too.

If it is a male then Josh should cover all the shipping.

The OP should provide the picture/video evidence though. It is a lot easier to make a male look female than a female look male. There is nothing to "pop", and if Josh were to say it came back and was a female, there would be a debate about whether it was legit. One video or picture of one snake showing that it is the snake that Josh sent and is a male would be great.

Good point.

A full refund, for a male that they've been breeding? No, I'm not seeing it.

Even if the seller made the mistake in sexing, they have been attempting to breed the snake, correct. The fact that the "breeder" claims 25 years of experience has me looking crosseyed, because if he's had 25 years of experience, he would know to sex before pairing snakes of unknown (new to him) sex.

Would I give a FULL refund on a mis-sexed snake that had been in "attempted" breeding situations (we weren't there)? No. That's the same as letting someone use my snake to make babies and then get their money back because I made an error. I would have only given a full refund if they had noticed the error within my TOS timeframe.

No, the story isn't holding up logically, at least not to me. But, I may have missed some other facts, so if I did, ignore my post.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

In all honesty, the photo the OP gave (see below) does not really prove anything to me. The whole snake is not in the photograph. The head and tail in the photograph look like they belong to two completely different snakes. In addition, milksnakes and kingsnakes look very similar, I can't even identify this image to species with that tiny photograph....
By providing better images, we'll be able to eliminate all doubt that this was a mix up by your friend. Also, if you can upload any photos taken by Josh of the snake you purchased from him, then we can compare both images and be 100% positive that the snake in question is genuinely male.

See, this is where I'm getting lost. I can't read statements like those above, without taking from them that they're inferring one of two things: 1- outright deception on the buyer/friend's part. 2- Blithering idiocy on the friend's part. As if he happened to have two identical pairings going on simultaneously and couldn't differentiate between the pairing with both of his own snakes, and the one involving one of the OP's.

Or are we implying that the provided picture shows something other than a snake with an everted hemipenis? If we're in agreement that it is a hemipenis that's shown, is there something to imply that the snake isn't the one that Josh originally sold him? While I agree that the picture isn't nearly enough to identify a particular snake, is the snake that's pictured consistent with the species that the OP bought from Outback? Maybe my perception of what the norm is, in these situations, is off. But it seems to me that unless there's some reason to actively doubt the buyer, placing more demands for proof of something like improper sexing just seem somewhat over the top.

I see a lot of doubt being cast on the buyer, whether directly or by inference, but as was my point to begin with, I'm just not seeing the context which justifies it. Everyone's lauding the seller for what a Good Guy he is. I don't know him, maybe he really is. However, I don't believe that all his past success should justify sweeping an documented history of occasional poor communication under the rug. Nor do I see anything that implies that the OP is a Bad Guy that's deserving of said doubt. I guess I'm just missing the bus on this one. Carry on.

Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids

See, this is where I'm getting lost. I can't read statements like those above, without taking from them that they're inferring one of two things: 1- outright deception on the buyer/friend's part. 2- Blithering idiocy on the friend's part. As if he happened to have two identical pairings going on simultaneously and couldn't differentiate between the pairing with both of his own snakes, and the one involving one of the OP's.

Or are we implying that the provided picture shows something other than a snake with an everted hemipenis? If we're in agreement that it is a hemipenis that's shown, is there something to imply that the snake isn't the one that Josh originally sold him? While I agree that the picture isn't nearly enough to identify a particular snake, is the snake that's pictured consistent with the species that the OP bought from Outback? Maybe my perception of what the norm is, in these situations, is off. But it seems to me that unless there's some reason to actively doubt the buyer, placing more demands for proof of something like improper sexing just seem somewhat over the top.

I see a lot of doubt being cast on the buyer, whether directly or by inference, but as was my point to begin with, I'm just not seeing the context which justifies it. Everyone's lauding the seller for what a Good Guy he is. I don't know him, maybe he really is. However, I don't believe that all his past success should justify sweeping an documented history of occasional poor communication under the rug. Nor do I see anything that implies that the OP is a Bad Guy that's deserving of said doubt. I guess I'm just missing the bus on this one. Carry on.

While I agree with your estimation of the situation. You have to admit that it wouldn't take someone that has been breeding for 25 years, TWO WEEKS to decide to sex the animal? Not logical, not to me...and if it's not logical, it's suspect.

He's due a refund IF the animal is the correct animal, but I disagree that it should be a FULL refund. He's had the animal for too long and I'm quite untrusting.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

A full refund, for a male that they've been breeding? No, I'm not seeing it.

Even if the seller made the mistake in sexing, they have been attempting to breed the snake, correct. The fact that the "breeder" claims 25 years of experience has me looking crosseyed, because if he's had 25 years of experience, he would know to sex before pairing snakes of unknown (new to him) sex.

Would I give a FULL refund on a mis-sexed snake that had been in "attempted" breeding situations (we weren't there)? No. That's the same as letting someone use my snake to make babies and then get their money back because I made an error. I would have only given a full refund if they had noticed the error within my TOS timeframe.

No, the story isn't holding up logically, at least not to me. But, I may have missed some other facts, so if I did, ignore my post.

Post ignored.

Would you mind reading the whole thread then responding?

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

While I agree with your estimation of the situation. You have to admit that it wouldn't take someone that has been breeding for 25 years, TWO WEEKS to decide to sex the animal? Not logical, not to me...and if it's not logical, it's suspect.

He's due a refund IF the animal is the correct animal, but I disagree that it should be a FULL refund. He's had the animal for too long and I'm quite untrusting.

I don't see it as particularly illogical. His friend bought the snake from an ostensibly reputable dealer who portrayed it as a female. Friend says 'hey I can't get this girl to breed, wanna try?'. Aside from what little could be read into the fact that it didn't breed for the OP, there's no reason to assume it wasn't sexed properly. It's one of those woulda, coulda, shoulda things. Should SOMEONE have tried to sex the snake upon receipt? Probably. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. In and of itself, I don't see how that negates the seller's responsibility to provide what was paid for: a female snake. IF the snake really is a male, I think the OP is due every cent he paid for it. To me, at least, the time involved doesn't change anything. It's not an illness where the amount of elapsed time creates a grey area.

I am waiting to hear from the Owner of the company (Ian) on how he wants to handle the situation, before I make any formal post as it's out of my hands right now due to the time passed on the transaction, but wanted to put a time time on the sexing in question.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

We were also told he was in with one of the OP males, and not a "friends" male.

While not a reason for the delay in replies, given the situation, and the amount of time elapsed, along with the picture we received (same as in thread) I had to pass the situation to the owner to see how we could handle it, and did not realize he had not replied to the buyer yet. (Its breeding season for our balls and rainbows so he has been tied up the last few weeks, not a excuse but a reason for the delay). I spoke with him today, and we are working on a way to verify the animal (and sex) to get the situation resolved as soon as possible.

I will let the OP know what we decide is the best solution as soon as I hear from the owner.

Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids

I don't see it as particularly illogical. His friend bought the snake from an ostensibly reputable dealer who portrayed it as a female. Friend says 'hey I can't get this girl to breed, wanna try?'. Aside from what little could be read into the fact that it didn't breed for the OP, there's no reason to assume it wasn't sexed properly. It's one of those woulda, coulda, shoulda things. Should SOMEONE have tried to sex the snake upon receipt? Probably. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. In and of itself, I don't see how that negates the seller's responsibility to provide what was paid for: a female snake. IF the snake really is a male, I think the OP is due every cent he paid for it. To me, at least, the time involved doesn't change anything. It's not an illness where the amount of elapsed time creates a grey area.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

That's quite a long timeframe...for having a breeding male and then wanting a full refund.

I recall this discussion came up some time ago, too. I was among those who was less "forgiving" if someone kept a breeding male for that long (even if they claim not to have sexed or failed attempted breedings). I would not give a full refund in this case because of the length of time involved and the fact that the snake changed hands a couple of times.

But that's just me.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

That's quite a long timeframe...for having a breeding male and then wanting a full refund.

I recall this discussion came up some time ago, too. I was among those who was less "forgiving" if someone kept a breeding male for that long (even if they claim not to have sexed or failed attempted breedings). I would not give a full refund in this case because of the length of time involved and the fact that the snake changed hands a couple of times.

But that's just me.

It seems that we agree on the basic principle, just not specifics regarding the proper solution. I can live with that. I guess it amounts to another philosophical question that ultimately isn't for either of us, or anyone besides Outback, to answer.

OMG, can ppl plz read the WHOLE thread. 1 They ARE 2 different snakes in the pic, if you cant see the penis sticking out from the tail of the darker one then your blind. 2 THE SNAKE WAS NEVER BRED, EVER, ONCE... 3 needs to be an IQ test to be able to leave replies.. 4 I have no reason to lie, play games, screw over any FELLOW breeder, whats the point? If i had space and a female to breed him with i would keep him BUT i for damn sure do not. If they do the right thing and take him back im 100% sure they will be more than happy with the health and size the snake now is....